olympicsos

32 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

The primary use today for U.S. cents is in sales tax collection.

I guess the amount of sales tax that's coming in more than makes up for the losses incurred in producing cents. It's like a federal subsidy to states without the federal government actually giving them money. 

2 hours ago, RWB said:

How about posting a photo of the 1924 double eagle. There are several collectors of those here and they might enjoy seeing a MS-67 example.

I love coin porn! Double eagle coin porn is my favorite! 

On 10/31/2020 at 9:53 PM, silverdrag'n said:

I couldn't agree with you more, a good local dealer is a fine asset to find. Many dealers tend to forget that the new customer in the shop could be a long-term asset they should cultivate for mutual benefit, not just for "let's stick it to him because we've never seen Joe Blow before and he can't be of consequence." 

The gist of a good interaction, businesswise, is to forget about the momentary gain and strive to build a long-term relationship. I know, in my professional life I offered the corporate development services to take promising companies on to the capital markets, be it the NYSE, NASDAQ, AMEX, OTCBB and the Pink Sheets. Knowing how expensive our services were, I put talk of sales way in the back burner and dedicated my time to listening to my prospective clients because spending a few million dollars on an IPO is a big move for any up-and-coming company. 

The long-term care and utter reliability of my caring and "kid gloves" approach paid off handsomely because they could tell I was honestly interested in the success of their business.

After this, the sales rolled in on their own. 

A good local dealer is very hard to find, especially since so many smaller towns have limited or no coin brick and mortar dealerships. The demand for brick and mortar dealerships just isn't there outside major metropolitan areas unless they also focus on pawning, and even in major metropolitan areas the kind of customers you attract to brick and mortar shops are those that dealers can easily mistake for someone who won't want to build a long term relationship. 

On 10/31/2020 at 11:39 AM, JKK said:

So if two of your local coin dealers sucked, that's how you winnow them out. However, I would point out that bullion dealing and rare coin dealing are two different businesses. I agree that what you describe is a bad attitude and reflects poorly on anyone's business, but I've also been the one answering that phone. There are two main categories of people who call in to the coin store: bullion buyers and coin buyers. (Of course, some people do both.) It gets wearisome having the bullion people grumble over the premium and tell you they can get it cheaper somewhere else. The whole thing is purely commodity and not very profitable, and some dealers do it only because they are expected to--and figure if they are going to do it, they should get a decent profit as they reckon it. None of that excuses poor attitudes or customer service, but it might explain them. Plus, the bullion people often come in and want to talk politics or evangelize about their predictions for the future, and it's like being the bartender--you're stuck with them and their pontifications.

Another problem is that an alarming percentage of coin dealers are socially dysfunctional. When someone recommends a dealer to me I ask: "Okay, so how autistic is he?" It would be wonderful if we could combine good attitudes with certain professions, but there's a significant personality problem in the coin dealership world. If you can't tolerate that, I don't fault you, but it does limit the options.

I stand by what I said, which is that it's worth finding a good local dealer. If those two are the only ones in town or nearby, then I guess that's that. In those cases there are usually coin shows. There is also probably a local coin club where people will know who's good to deal with and may even have an informal bourse or annual show (ours has both; the bourse is during the social hour, at least when we are meeting in person rather than on zoom). Many dealers only do shows and by appointment, so you would not find them except by meeting them at a show and evaluating them there. That's how our local primary ancients dealer is.

The coin collecting hobby doesn't attract as many autistic people as other hobbies such as bus and train enthusiasts. Sometimes the best dealers to build a relationship are ones that are across the country and a plane ride away. This form and ATS has helped me find coin dealers rather than searching for coin dealers within x miles of a certain zip code. 

On 10/31/2020 at 3:11 AM, JKK said:

The biggest problem with online is the tuition involved in sorting out which dealers are reliable to work with. This is why brick and mortar coin shops still exist. Wherever I live, I need to find the best local coin shop and build a good business relationship with the dealer. I buy almost no coins online and I'm not in any hurry to change that.

You have the same tuition with brick and mortar coin shops too. I've sold stuff to brick and mortar coin shops in the NYC metro area where I tried to build a relationship with them, but they were very condescending and arrogant. Like asking me whether I was interested in PCS and NGI certified coins, when we both know NGC and PCGS are the big players in the hobby. 

19 hours ago, World Colonial said:

No if by this question you are asking if it should be worth substantially more.

Most of the supply isn't even owned by collectors or at least for collecting purposes.  It's predominantly owned by "silver stackers" in bulk and by collectors as a collectible form of silver at immaterial premiums.  There are nowhere near 5MM+ collectors who will ever want to pay any noticeable premium for it and of those who will, only as exists now as an MS-70.

The ASE is one of the most "popular" series measured by the size of the collector base, but this doesn't mean they like it that much at much higher prices.  It's competitive for the low budget collector because it's relatively cheap and extremely common which means anyone with the money can complete the series if they choose.

For collectors of more substantive means, it's almost certainly mostly a sideline (casual or secondary) collection, unless they are also mostly buying other NCLT.  For everyone else, the series isn't interesting enough as a collectible.

5MM+ isn't a low mintage.  It only appears low relative to circulating change.  It's the same error made by those who think mintages on modern US commemoratives are or seem low.  Given the sentiments I read on coin forums, it's probable that a noticeable proportion of the demand for these "low" mintage coins is by those who expect to sell it for more later, not because they really want it.  

Plus the 1995-W and the 2019 enhanced reverse proof are worth way more than that and have much less made. 

Looks more like the coin was whizzed and messed with. Also the British coin you posted also looks like it has been cleaned. Both coins will come back in a body bag from a TPG. 

16 hours ago, World Colonial said:

My interpretation of the OP was discontinuing coinage altogether.    I don't see that happening, except in a cashless society.

It's other posts such as yours bringing up removing one or more denominations.  If coinage is going to remain, it's more likely the lowest denominations would be removed while new ones are introduced to replace the lowest value currency notes.  That's what has happened elsewhere to this point.

I don't think replacing a $1 bill with a $1 coin will ever happen in the US. People like their paper money more than coins and there are studies that show that the $1 bill actually has recently become cost efficient than the $1 coin. 

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

The main obstacle to a cashless society in the US is first, the dollar's reserve currency status.  By value, most FRN are held outside the US and the US Treasury and FRB at least will think very carefully before making this radical change.  Concurrently though, there are political proponents to do it to combat "money laundering" by tracking all financial transactions and making it easier to implement NIRP if "necessary".

Second, the unbanked which will presumably be "solved" by the use of smartphones as occurs or is in process in the developing world.

All other considerations impacting future coinage production are either irrelevant or immaterial.

But those who use the US Dollar as a reserve currency are mainly holding paper dollars and not coins. No one really likes handling coins here, and no one is handling coins abroad either. You can get rid of the penny, nickel and dime from circulation and round everything to the nearest Quarter since its really the Quarter that is the workhorse coin and inflation will still make the other denominations even more useless as time goes on. There's no other Western country where I see coins on the ground because no one cares too much about them. 

20 hours ago, World Colonial said:

Matter of degree to me.  Some difference but not substantive. 

The earlier modern commemoratives I thought covered "worthy" events but practically none more recently.  I also agree with your inference that many classic commemoratives never should have been struck.  It's just since collectors are used to seeing it in the Red Book over their entire collecting experience, they don't tend to think of these coins equally.

If most modern commemoratives had never been issued, I don't see it as any loss and it isn't because I don't buy it.  It's because I consider what's being commemorated trivial, irrelevant or just plain stupid.  There is no need to issue commemoratives every year if there is nothing "significant" enough for it.  Earlier you mentioned the Olympic coins.  1984, 1996 and 2002 I think is fine because the US hosted it.  I don't think it should have been issued for any others.  Leave this to the host country.

Over issuance cheapens the whole series and I'm not claiming this due to the price performance in the secondary market.  If fewer were issued for events actually worth commemorating, I believe it would make the series more interesting to more collectors.  I am also aware that anyone can avoid coins they don't like but many are still set collectors and won't do that.

The only difference with the classic commemoratives is that you can more easily put together sub sets such as a complete set of Oregon trail halves. The modern commemoratives don't have programs where you can really do this unless you include the 1995 and 1996 Atlanta coins and even then those coins aren't as popular with collectors compared to the Oregon Trail coins. 

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I hadn't read that they were thinking of selling bullion directly to "consumer/collectors". Where did you read that? Be careful about that idea. It WILL do to bullion what has happened to numismatic products.

There was a US Mint survey sent out to customers surveying them about the idea. There is a thread ATS. 

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

The current situation is what happens with perpetual inflation while the customer's income mostly stagnates.  It's a similar problem with the TPG business model where they have to increase grading fees even as the price level stagnates which makes it uneconomical to submit a greater proportion of coins.

There is a third option you left out.  They can discontinue a product or the product line entirely.

There are a bunch of US Mint products that could be discontinued entirely. The clad proof set for starters. 

10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

This is correct for bullion coins, but the huge increases are all in the numismatic division. It is only the numismatic division that bleeds red ink at current prices. The seniorage of quarters rescues circulation division operations, and the bullion division is self-sustaining. The numismatic division is the financial basket case. The main problem seems to be distribution of fixed costs, including, by the way, the entirety of the Mint’s website operations, plus the entire Mississippi warehouse, plus all advertising of all kinds and media. Every major coin show they attend gets added into the fixed costs as well.

The only answers are radical cost reductions or increased prices.

No wonder why the US Mint is considering selling bullion coins to collectors directly. The US Mint wants the profits for itself rather than bullion coins going through the profit chain between the Mint, the authorized purchasers, the dealers that buy from authorized purchasers, the collector. 

3 hours ago, RWB said:

At its beginning I assembled date sets of ASEs and AGEs. But then the Mint started playing games with nonsense special surfaces, and "proof" versions and other garbage. My buying stopped long ago and the sets are in the bank box. Seems the original purpose of these series has been forgotten.

The only coins from the US Mint I've acquired lately are pieces given to me by appreciative collectors. (Yes, Virginia, there remain a few who appreciate research and information more than gold.)

Who can forget colorized coins. Although I did like the reverse proof and enhanced uncirculated finishes as well as the proof like finishes on the 2009 UHR. I think that ever since cameo proofs have been made with uniformity since 1978, the traditional proof coins have lost their color with me. 

16 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

I think this is representative of a noticeable proportion, now and previously.  

It's also why even when mintages are supposedly "low", it's far more than the actual collector base who really want it.  Even among those not buying it for profit, it's noticeably either a sideline collection or bought out of habit.

I used to buy annual proof sets, mint sets, ASE's and 1/10 oz AGE's through 2008 and then the classic coins stole my heart. The only modern post 2008 coins that I really like are the 2009 UHR and the 2016 gold centennial coins. 

The only thing I have bought from the US Mint over the years are items that I think I can flip for profit. The only thing I have bought from the US Mint this year are bags of 2019 S mint ATB Quarters because I have been unable to get Quarters in bulk from my bank because of COVID restrictions and because I am uncomfortable touching coins from the bank and would gladly pay the US Mint premium to avoid the germs and the headache of dealing with my bank. 

6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

All true....but I'm not talking about use in commerce, I'm talking about SAVINGS.  You would think having 1 or 2 or 3 gold coins/Double Eagles would be considered prudent and not an impossibility for most Americans to have "saved up" over a few years or out of a few paychecks (esp. during The Roaring '20's, when the economy was good).

Roger's book (P. 589) says $310 MM or about 15.5 million Double Eagles were held by the General Public/Business.  But I can't find a breakdown for the Public Only which would approximate households and/or small business.

There were other concerns as well, there was income inequality during the 1920s on levels that are similar to today, even though the economy was good. If people really were putting aside coins for savings the way you think people should be putting them aside, you would have way more Walking Liberty halves before 1934 in MS, way more Barber halves in MS, way more SLQ's in MS, way more Barber Quarters in MS. I mean Quarter Eagles during the 1920s tended to be paid out during the holiday season and then re-deposited back in banks in January, same thing for silver dollars outside the west. 

6 hours ago, RWB said:

Sounds like someone has read my little booklet....

Yes I have! 

10 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm surprised that holdings of Double Eagles wasn't more widespread from 1907-1933.  You had the Panic of 1907 and the failure of Knickerbocker Trust Co....World War 1 (stock trading suspended)....Recession of 1921.....Depression.....8,000 bank failures 1932-33.

I realize poor and "middle class" folks didn't have the savings they do today, but you'd think more families would have a few of them as emergency savings or stores of value.

Of course, I believe a few million (hundreds of thousands ?) got turned in after FDR's EO.

 

 

Most people never even saw them or came across them. $20 was a lot of money back then and so much money to the point that the $20 coins were only needed for international trade between large entities and not individuals. You also had gold certificates that circulated in their place, particularly outside the west.  A lot of gold didn't actually get turned in after FDR's EO as many of the gold that was turned in were gold certificates and not the coins themselves, absent a few cases which were often exaggerated. 

4 hours ago, RWB said:

There are fewer date/mint combinations for Eagles, and smaller production quantities. That also means fewer potential die varieties. Also, there's little point in repeating much of the section introduction material from the DE book. The E book might be 1/3 the total length --- really don't know. When I write an article or book, I let the data and documents tell the story, and that means I don't write to a specific length.

The reason for this is that not many average Americans before 1933 encountered gold coins, especially $10's and $20's. When $20's easier to count and less labor intensive than the smaller gold coins, why bother making many of the smaller gold coins for trade? Sometimes average Americans would encounter $5's or $2.50's during the holidays, but that was it. 

I used to be all about flashy coins and now I am all about whether the coin is fully struck and whether there's any rub on a coin. Too many Saints out there that grade MS that have rubbing on the knee. 

6 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thank You, mis-construed Eagles Book for the Double Eagles book.

Not to nitpick, but if the demand for smaller coins hit in 1932, why didn't it "shake loose" alot of the presumably "bagged and vaulted" earlier year Eagles ?  Any ideas ?

I am assuming because of the demand from Europe which would have coins be shipped from Philadelphia, the only ones that would be shipped are the 1926 and 1932 coins. In 1920 and 1930, the only other years eagles were made since 1916, the coins were made in San Francisco. No eagles were made at Philadelphia since 1915. 

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you like the book, Olympics ?  

What's the 5th of the "Fab Five" coins you reference ?  You don't mean 1933, do you ?  I presume the other 4 are 1929, 1930, 1931, and 1932.

The fab five coins, as users such as Saintguru call them ATS are the 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, 1932. 

12 hours ago, RWB said:

Regarding the question about 1932 Eagles --- These bits from the Saint-Gaudens Eagle book might be helpful. There is more in the book -- whenever I can get it finished. (The following is copyright 2020 Seneca Mill Press LLC and Roger W Burdette.)

"By the end of 1931 European speculators and gold hoarders were looking for additional avenues to profit from international currency turmoil. With French citizens and others demanding to buy gold in small quantities for personal hoards, and no domestic gold coin available, the obvious solution was to import U.S. coins.[1] Eagles and half eagles seemed to be the most popular because they could be bought by those of modest means. Double eagles required more capital but were also available in almost limitless quantity. The first publicity about private exports for hoarding was a small article in the Wall Street Journal on February 1, 1932:

     Foreigners have been withdrawing American gold coins at the rate of approximately $5,000,000 weekly in the last few weeks, the largest shipments being made to France and Holland. Those transactions are handled by banks who charge a premium on the business. This gold movement is not entirely reflected in the statements of the New York Federal Reserve Bank.

     The foreign recipients, mostly banks, are selling the coins, also at a premium, for hoarding purposes, since gold coin in European countries is not easily available.[2]

            The U.S. coins were not only of recognized purity standards, but were freely available from banks sometimes without a fee.

     The American banks are the only ones in the world outside of South Africa which freely furnish gold coin. Even in France, where the gold standard is strongly entrenched, the banks decline to issue gold in small amounts. The French banks will, however, issue gold bars on demand, but these bars, weighing 25 pounds and costing several thousand dollars, are too costly and too unwieldy to support the newly created business of profiteering in gold currency.

     As a result…the foreign vendors of coins have turned to the United States as their sole source of supply.[3]

---

[1] Like most other aspects of the exchange and melting of gold coins during this time, these quantities are estimates only. The author’s estimates differ from published values provided by Friedman and Schwartz, and other professional economists in that the present estimates relate only to gold coin. Gold bullion, Federal Reserve Bank Notes, gold certificates, silver certificates and other forms of money have been excluded.

[2] “U.S. Exports Gold Coins,” Wall Street Journal, February 1, 1932.

[3] “U.S. Banks War on Shipping of Gold Coins to Hoarders,” The Washington Post, February 3, 1932. p.1.

"Most of the 1.8 million 1932 eagles released into circulation were shipped in February and March of that year. These predominantly found their way into European hoards but were not generally part of central bank reserves. Once New York banks realized why there were many requests for relatively small amounts of gold coins, they voluntarily refused to issue the coins, as noted above."

Thank you for your answer! I am looking forward to buying your book on Saint Gaudens Eagles too! 

On 10/12/2020 at 11:21 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Chapter 6....this is a FASCINATING chapter that Roger included; I re-read it this past weekend.  It takes a snapshot as of December 31, 1933 to gauge how many of the entire production run of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles -- just under 70,300,000 -- MAY have survived based on the KNOWN destruction quantities.  Obviously, that's a ceiling and doesn't mean that all unaccounted for Saints still exist.  But I think it does point to the possibility of more hordes possibly being out there or just large numbers of people holding some coins and being unaware of it.  Or even technology-deficient banks or central banks having a few bags in long-forgotten vaults or holding areas.

Page 603 gives the breakdown:  just under 27,000,000 Saints were melted down, leaving about 43 million potentially available.....subtracting another 3.7 million known survivors and you get just under 40 million Saints missing and/or unaccounted for.

The real fun would be if there were any hordes for the 1929-32 years.  Even a few hundred or even few dozen could really cause sparks in the market.

I purchased the book. I doubt a hoard for 1929 would come to light just based on where the bags of 1929 coins were stored. Given how few of the other fab five dates have left the mint, I believe that many of the fab five dates are among those that are certainly destroyed. I bet that if millions of Saints were discovered and came on the market, they would all be 1924's or 1927's or 1928's. You're not getting hoards or 1927-D or 1927-S Saints or fab five Saints. On a side note, I also have always wondered why the 1932 Indian $10 is so common? 

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

And worst. 

There's a huge list of that. 

On 8/3/2020 at 9:25 PM, RWB said:

Same team of artists. But Oregon Trail is not a circulation coin.

I thought commemoratives are included in best overall coin design. 

On 7/26/2020 at 2:36 PM, RWB said:

The best overall coin design in America is the Buffalo nickel. It is the only circulating coin with a single theme expressed in a coherent, unified manner.

I'd say that about the Oregon Trail Half.

Regarding the HOF coin, I remember that Cassie McFarland was one designer that plenty of hobbyists were curious about, a little more so than John Mercanti, Joe Menna or Elizabeth Jones.

Perhaps maybe the mint should go back to the 1960s and 1970s where the only coins they sell are proof and mint sets?