Franz Joseph

Coin 6864010-004 was misslabeled and sent to NGC as ME for a new label. After correcting a mistake from 20C to 20H in the label the NGC registry picture is still showing the incorrect one when you enter cert.Nr.

This is the correct picture of the coin : 

This set would be nice to have: 1 Thaler, Charles VI, 1711-1740, Circulation Issue

- 6642141-004

- 5789890-102

Thank you!

On 12/25/2023 at 2:28 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Send the coin to PCGS and quit whining, NGC is not going to reverse their policy on this. 

I took a look over at the PCGS population report and it looks like they've only ever graded one 1882, 20 lire "red" gold variety coin. Since, based on OP's avatar, it looks to be in an older generation holder, I'd be very surprised if PCGS still recognizes this variety. 

I will probably send more than just this one coin to PCGS...Every second coin has a wrong description or wrong picture...Definetly poor service in all aspects! 

You all ignore the facts! It does not matter the alloy or minting process- it should be the same as for copper or bronze coins which are stupidly designated based on current colour which will change in years to make a coin in a slab wrongly designated in a few years! When the small amount of coins is in different colour it is not the same colour! Especialy gold coin will never change this colour as we can see they are the same since 1882!

If you ignore the colour  you are no longer a numismatist,or grader or collector ! Why is there no colour designation for silver coins? They also change colour due to environmental process? 

You all understand the logic behind grading copper and bronze coins but not for the silver and gold?  And please no more about varietes.We already agreed what is a variety. Now is time to make a NGC service for numismatist and not for quick money maker with unprofessional graders!

Collectors handbook of Italian coins MONTENEGRO which is published yearly and it is supreme reference book for Italian coins also includes 20 lire in red gold as independent( oro rosso-red gold) coin-if this is a variety or not is not the issue but NGC should designate the colour of this rare coins!

And No it is not a mistake in catalogue!

This is a nice example of variety - Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)

As you can see PCGS can grade and distinguish red from the other colours! So PCGS not competent for grading ?Also- Standard Catalog of World Coins - 2001–Date, 14th Edition, publication date 2019, Krause Publications is not competent book?

PLEASE!!!!

On 12/24/2023 at 8:07 PM, Sandon said:

   No, we don't have the same issue! Every pure copper or 95% or more copper bronze or brass coin starts out "red" when struck. It changes to "red and brown" and/or "brown" due to chemical reactions with substances in the atmosphere to which it has been exposed or on surfaces with which it has come in contact, even if it has no circulation wear. Among most collectors, the more original "red" color such a copper or copper alloy coin has, the more desirable it is. The distinction is one made for grading purposes and is somewhat subjective. 

   Everyone who has collected gold alloy coins knows that they, too, can vary somewhat in color based upon environmental exposure or possibly manufacturing processes. U.S. gold coins minted from 1837 until 1933 are supposed to all be composed of 90% gold, 10% copper, but they vary in color from a bright yellow to a more orange to even a reddish tint. Earlier U.S. gold coins were struck in either .9167 (1795-1834) or .8992 (1834-37) gold, with silver as well as copper in their alloys. They, too, may vary in color. The color differences aren't verbally distinguished among collectors or grading services, although a gold coin might achieve a slightly higher numerical grade based upon an attractive color adding to its "eye appeal."

  The 1882 Italian gold coin to which you are referring is distinguished as a different variety based on its being struck in a different alloy from the others. "Red gold" is a variety designation, not a grading term. Presumably, NGC's graders are concerned that they can't tell whether one of these coins was actually struck in "red gold" just by looking at it and don't want to take the chance that the coin turns out to be "red" due to environmental factors, not a 10% copper alloy. They have the right to make this determination as a business matter. You have the right not to use their services or to regard your coin as "red gold" and so label its holder as you wish.

   Generally, NGC will not identify a variety that is not listed in NGC's "VarietyPlus" listing. The 1882 "Red Gold" 20 lire is not so listed. See G20L | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com). The inclusion of a registry slot for this variety, likely by a programmer who hadn't consulted with the graders about this, was misleading and to that extent you have a valid cause for complaint.   

   

The coin has been listed in NGC competitive set until this discussion ! This coin is a variety as much as a different year in the coin.Perhaps all coins should be graded a s 20 Lire because during some process they can not be sure which year they are??? Stupid analogy I beleive!

On 12/24/2023 at 4:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I can save you the trouble -- and tears.  Whatever the reason, varieties as we know them are not recognized in the Rooster line and there are a few.

As you know, "Dieu Protege La France," or God Protect France is the edge lettering used on the Originals (1899-1906).  "Liberte Equalite Fraternite," or Liberty Equality Brotherhood is used on the Restrikes (1907-1914).

Malhereusement, an unknown number of Restrikes bear the earlier edge lettering, and with the absence of official recognition, edge lettering on many encapsulations completely defeat any attempt to distinguish which restrike may have it.  While the older roosters appear to be darker, many new ones can be found bearing a distinct coppery glow, and yet the alloy used for both are the same.

So we have the same colour issue as from the bronze coins- but they are distinguished  as red to brown by the NGC!!!  It does not matter which alloy is but only the colour of the coin.   If you have coins officialy minted and cataloged in 2 colours than NGC should grade those as such! MUST GRADE!

It is not possible to alter the colour during the minting process or heating  or... It is the alloy which determines the colour( speaking only for gold!!!)

When the coins are encapsulated all the details are gone -colour(if coins are in 2 colours),edge lettering... You have a coin which you have to remove from the holder to see the details!!! This is a big NGC fault! And they do not want to recognize it!

If you are a dog than this could be usefull -

I can point red colour where it is. Every day,every night. Some people obviesly can not.

I hope you people distinguish between red and green when driving! 

Once again -red is red and yellow is yellow or there is no colour at all?

Perhaps this can help to someone- Colours | LearnEnglish Kids (britishcouncil.org)

On 12/21/2023 at 5:16 PM, RWB said:

Verbal descriptions such as 'red' or 'yellow' are neither accurate nor reliable. Also, men and women discriminate colors differently. Coin color can be objectively measured without resorting to XRF. (Back in the 1942 the US Bureau of Standards was using the Munsell color system to describe the colors of plastic experimental cents for the US Mint's research.)

Normal person see red as red and yellow as yellow ! Otherwise there is something wrong with your eyes! If the coin is in all catalogues described as red and given a special reference number than is probably red as red is! 

NGC as a company working for numismatist should be able to grade every legit coin!  Especially those listed in worldwide recognized catalogues such as KM !

I called it fake with a ? not !

I want an answer that is all!

Interesting fact is that copper,brass and other composition coins can be distinguished between 3 colors,RED,BROWN AND REDBROWN( R,BR,RB).

This is contrary to their explanation that no longer attribute coins based on color !?

During this conversation this coin has been removed from the NGC registry( competitive sets) with no explanation!

Hello, @Franz Joseph.

We have removed the registry slot. All grading questions need to go to service@NGCcoin.com. Thank you.

They do not want to tell me the reason. I asked them for the explanation but did not get one. In my opininon if the grader can not distinguish between the colours grading this kind of coins is a night mare.

As you can see from the pictures left coin is red.

PCGS grades this coins with no problem!

There is yellow gold with 10% Silver and 90% gold and red gold with 10% cooper and 90 % gold. There is nothing between- only these two colours exist. That is why you have in KM#21 regular yellow gold and KM#21a red gold.

Can please anybody explain why 20Lire 1882 RED GOLD-KM #21a is not eligible for grading in NGC?

So after 6 month you received a partial refund? 

Can somebody from the NGC please explain why the 20 Lire 1882 RED GOLD listed in KM#21a will not be graded?

If this is a serious company than an anser is expected! !!!!!!!

So-RED GOLD 20 Lire 1882 is not a coin? Obviesly we are sending coins to blind graders? 

I submitted 20 Lire 1882 RED gold for grading.This coins is listed in KM catalogue under number KM #21a. But know this coin can not be graded for unknown,secret,unexplained reason,probably because the grader can not distinguish between the colours???

Will this slot be removed from NGC registry  ?

Coin is- 2909640-001 

This is the answer from customer service  :

I submitted a 20L RED GOLD coin for grading .Despite many notes on all documents that the coin is red gold the grader removed red gold! This coin(20 Lire 1882 RED GOLD) is listed in KM under Nr:21a

Based on my 30+ years of experience the coin is RED GOLD 100%.  I got the answer from NGC   -Thank you for your patience. The team let me know that we do not differentiate between gold colors for these coins or other European issues. We have unfortunately, have not done this for some time. We apologize that we are not able to accommodate your request. 

This 20 Lire 1882 RED GOLD is listed in all catalogues  but graders can not differentiate this? 

Regular 20L1882 is KM#21

RED GOLD 20L 1882 IS KM#21a

Did you get a refund?