Kohaku

Mokiechan,

For me, it really makes the coin come alive when I learn more about the historical context.  I am in the process of going through my entire collection and doing some additional research/revision all of my Owner's Comments. So I'm kind of in "re-discovery" mode.

Those that I think are most interesting for others to read about, those I am posting here in my journal, and I truly appreciate your feedback.  Thanks!

What beautiful toning, thanks for posting!

9 hours ago, thisistheshow said:

I find the idea of the debasement leading to more circulation, less hoarding very interesting.

What also is interesting is that apparently there are also examples of the reverse. For instance, a lot of argentei struck by Diocletion as part of his coinage reform have survived in very high uncirculated condition.  The reason why so many high quality examples have survived is probably because the return back to high silver content coinage resulted in more hoarding again, at least that theory makes a lot of sense to me.

13 hours ago, Mokiechan said:

Thank You for sharing your knowledge, a very attractive and insteresting coin, for sure.

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it.  This is certainly among the "most iconic" ancient coins, another example I would say is Tiberius' tribute penny (I have that one in the collection), and the Athena owl tetradrachm (I sadly have not yet got around to procuring one of those).

thisistheshow,

That is a very interesting question, and I actually have wondered about that myself. 

I would say it depends on the coin.  For this particular coin, I would say yes.  The side portrait of Marc Antony on this coin is highly distinctive, and Marc Antony was among the most famous Roman men (along with his fellow triumvirs).  Even for a citizen who was not literate (and that was probably ~90% by the way), I would imagine that they would either at least recognize Antony from the portrait, or possibly at least understand that he was associated with the letters M ANT IMP.  That is not to imply that those average citizens would know Antony from seeing him in person, but rather, from his various portrait coinage.  (As an aside, this is why it must have been a really, really big deal when Caesar started the important new trend of portrait coinage, and why it triggered such a response that led to his own demise.) So it probably took a bit of time for people to start recognizing that it was Antony on his coins.  By the time this particular coin as struck, it had been about a decade that Antony had been producing portrait coins.  So, again, I would say yes for this coin, most average Romans knew that was him on this coin.

Also, since Octavia was one of, if not the most, famous or all Roman women, and her marriage to Antony was also famous, I would imagine that the average Roman citizen would know that the woman on this particular was Octavia.  I would also imagine that the average Roman would *not* know that it was Octavia if her portrait appeared alone (since her portrait coinage was much rare than Antony's).

For the Fulvia coin for the previous Journal Entry ("The First Living Roman Woman Depicted on Coinage?"), I would say no, the average Roman citizen probably would not know it was Fulvia.  It is quite possible that average Roman would not even know that the coin was struck by Antony, unless they were literate, or happened to know the significant of the reverse inscription. Importantly, at the time, it had only been a few years since portrait coinage had been in style, so the average person might not have seen much of Antony's portrait coinage yet.

Thanks for your insightful question, it actually has implications about the role that coinage played as propaganda in the history of the Roman Empire.

On 4/14/2019 at 3:30 AM, MIKE BYRNE said:

Thanks for your response I'm so sorry I'm late. The main purpose of slaving is to protect them. If you have a few rare ones at the table anything can happen by accident. Then no longer desirable. Stains falls anything. Thanks for your comment Mike

As an example, I found an absolutely stunning Pertinax denarius while perusing a wonderful coin shop in Munich.  The only "flaw" was a fairly pronounced flan crack.  I didn't realize my peril...when I returned home and unpacked my suitcase, I was all ready to pack up my latest coin off to NGC for grading and include into my collection...to my dismay, the coin had split into two! :-(

Needless to say, I didn't bother to ship to NGC for grading (although I do wonder is there is some reasonable method to repair it?!).

Also sorry about my late response to your response...I have take several weeks hiatus from the collection, focusing on other things. I hope to get around to some more research/postings soon!

Cheers!

KD,

Thanks for your comment on my research.  Indeed this is a very small coin, I found a bit challenging to grab and manipulate in hand (that is, before I sent off to NGC Ancients for encapsulation).

Teacher Brian, thanks for your comment, I really appreciate the feedback!

2 hours ago, BipolarBaby said:

I am currently looking at Sulla coins to purchase but it appears the pricing is all over the place - something I've noticed buying ancient coins. Could you help me gauge an actual price for a vf Sulla? Thanks for your time and consideration!

Peter

BipolarBaby,

I completely agree with you on the pricing of ancient coins being all over the place.  At least with modern coins, in particular slabbed modern coins, there are usually a plethora of specimens of each date/mint to choose from, and their strikes and surfaces are very consistent (cleaned coins are a notable exception of course!), so the pricing is relatively competitive and consistent, for instance from dealer to dealer.  When it comes to ancient coins, each type is relatively more rare, oftentimes extremely rare, and much more variable in their strike and the chemical degradation on their surfaces.  I think that NGC is the on the correct track in that they not only give a traditional grade on the ancient coins' condition (like VF), but also give their opinion of the strike and surface quality as well.   Having said that, I am not necessarily suggesting you should be an already NGC-slabbed Sulla coin.  Actually, most ancient coin collection eschew "slabbing"; I am in the minority in that I prefer to slab my ancients.  Indeed, at this point in my ancient coin collecting journey I almost exclusively purchase "raw" coins, and then I encapsulate later.  It took me time and experience to get comfortable with that.  (I will post detailed comments on that in the future.) Having said that, I do have a number of ancient coins that I decided not to slab, for various reasons, including that sometimes I prefer to hold certain coins directly in my hand.

I encourage you to get multiple perspectives on collecting ancient coins, but as a start I will provide some of my own thoughts.  For collecting ancient coins in general, I advise at the beginning a bit of patience. Peruse what is out there currently, and study the prices, descriptions, and photos of each one, especially for your own impression of "eye appeal".  Even if the coin has chemical degradation on its surface, understand that is also part of that particular coin's history, and sometimes can be artistically appealing (I will post my comments on my Domitia coin later to give more of my perspective on that point).  If the photos are not well done, then I would avoid (means the selling is either trying to hide something or isn't experienced, both have obvious drawbacks).  I like to purchase from auctions (a few good places to at least look are CNG auctions, Heritage, biddr.ch, etc).  I personally do not recommend ebay for ancients, unless in NGC slab.  Another great place to look at is vcoins or ma-shops (a lot of dealers are there).  For not only upcoming, but  importantly previous realized price, other good resource are out there such as coinarchives, and there are similar sites as well.  Once you have seen what is available, you can choose from that, or wait for new examples to come to market, for example a lot of auctions occur each month.  Once you see what seems good for you, then you have some confidence that it is the right time/price to go for it.

I am sorry you had to read all this content, and I realize I still haven't answered you question:

Could you help me gauge an actual price for a vf Sulla?

I would need to know exactly which Sulla coin you want?  For the moment I would assume that you are looking for the same denarius I posted.  In this case, I would say probably $300-$400 range for VF example, maybe up to $500 for example with high eye appeal.  I realize that is still a  big range, but that is where VF doesn't tell the whole story and strike/surface comes in.

For coinarchives, here is a recent example in VF-ish condition...

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=1435129&AucID=2931&Lot=896&Val=d44bd0d5960200b25dc66e03aa7be35e

That one sold for about $300 US + commission, and I think has a lot of nice eye appeal (I am surprised it did not sell for higher, actually).

Here is another recent example from coinarchives...

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=1433589&AucID=2929&Lot=417&Val=5665308db5a22c8f830747b388ba28b9

This one sold for $340 + commission, and I think the first was nicer.

Here is an ebay example, starting at $349...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L-Cornelius-Sulla-L-Manlius-Torquatus-Roman-Republic-Silver-Denarius-82BC/273781403202?hash=item3fbea4ae42:g:IpMAAOSw76JcWh-R&frcectupt=true

Example sold in ma-shops,not super nice, and probably a bit below VF, $308...

https://www.ma-shops.com/henzen/item.php?id=25363&lang=en

Just because I can't help myself from sharing, here is a gorgeous example in Ch EF condition that sold recently for $1600+ commission...

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=1410931&AucID=2868&Lot=833&Val=ca2f6b92b54b4153e564056cff096c6d

I hope my diatribe-ish response helps!

On 3/26/2019 at 9:31 AM, BipolarBaby said:

Nice read, thanks for contributing

Thanks for your comment, I am glad you found worthwhile to read!

On 3/25/2019 at 11:51 AM, deposito said:

Yep this is the guy.  I have always wanted a gleaming mint state example of this coin, like this one.  This is one of the better looking obverse engravings too; some of them are kind of clumsy

I had been hunting for this coin for a while, and I passed on a few "raw" opportunities since, exactly as you say, I was not keen on the strike and/or condition.  I saw this one selling as already encapsulated, and I could not resist the chance at such a nice speciment!

7 hours ago, thisistheshow said:

I have seen you mention a few times the travelling military mint.  Were the coins made by these obviously discernable from other mints? Can you give a general background on the travelling mint?

thisistheshow,

I am not an expert on this point, but from my researching it appears that the coins produced by military mints, especially during the and Imperatorial periods were produced in all major metals/denominations (e.g., bronze, silver, gold) and were of the same size, shape, mass, and artistry, an used the similar motifs as official produced coins.  It is pretty amazing for the time to think how practical and efficient the Romans were, given that they could accomplish a mobile mint which required, at minimum, infrastructure required to produced the coins, namely skilled workers to set up, maintain, and operate the equipment, and the workers to strike the coins, not to mention dealing with storage and security related to carry around a large mass of precious metals!

For a general background, I found the following information interesting and informative...

https://www.academia.edu/35950471/Travelling_with_Roman_Military_Mints

...and, adding to the debate over who was the first living Roman on coinage, the author of that link posits it may have been Scipio Africanus!?

deposito,

Indeed XRF is the next frontier for studying ancient coinage.  Since I am a scientist, and actually employ XRF (not for examining purity of metals, but rather carbon and silicon materials) I found that paper particularly fascinating. 

I am also intrigued about the sources that describe the link between Brutus and Polemocratia. I am not sure any definitive conclusions can be made from that, but is at least suggestive of a link between Brutus and those staters. 

If you are interested, here are some pics of my other KOSON/Brutus stater posted below.  It is hard to tell from the pics (I always have trouble taking photos of coins), but in hand I get the distinct impression that my monogram coin is comprised of higher quality gold than my non-monogram coin, consistent with Constantinescu et al. 

The question of slabbing is even more hotly contested when it comes to ancient coins.  For me, I appreciate the security on having an ancient coin protected within the slab, as well as confirmation of attribution and condition (even if I don't always like the result for the latter!).  Having said that, I have some ancient coins that I decided not to slab, for various reasons.

13 hours ago, deposito said:

When is the Sulla movie coming out?  Especially in today's political climate, I would think his early years and longtime "girlfriend" would be popularly celebrated. 

I like your denarii.  That Sulla is one of the types I sort of collect

 

desposito,

I'm not sure about the timing for that movie, but I definitely would love to see it! Yes, I agree that Sulla's early years carousing with entertainers and the story his girlfriend/benefactor would make excellent material for that (I didn't get too much of chance to discuss in my Owner's Comments since I had a lot to cover already regarding his military exploits etc).  Thanks for your comment on my denarii.  I think that Roman denarii are quite fascinating and reasonable to collect, although I only have a few, including  the Fostlus denarii that I highlighted in an earlier Journal entry.  Perhaps my most prized denarii is one issued by Lucius Marcius Censorinus, featuring Marsyas on the verso.  Here are pics if you want to take a look...

5 hours ago, deposito said:

on the manlius torqatus denarii, in auction descriptions, they always describe the figure in the chariot on the back as "Sulla" in his triumph.  Not true?  Or that's not a portrait, so different standard?  Or, he's Sulla, so it doesn't count?
Nice find - did you get it raw?

deposito,

You make an excellent point! 

It is indeed true that a denarius struck by Sulla shows on its verso a figure riding in a chariot, and that figure - while difficult to identify - almost certainly represent Sulla.  Since it's not a portrait, Caesar's lifetime portrait coinage is often described as the first time a living Roman appeared on Rome's official coinage.  But that doesn't take away from Sulla's appearance in the chariot, its just that you can not unambiguously see his face to identify him.   In my Owners's Comment I make the statement that prior to The Coin That Killed Caesar "...Rome’s coinage had never portrayed the face of a living Roman". Since you make your excellent point, I decided to amend my comments to say "......Rome’s coinage had never portrayed the unambiguous face of a living Roman"

Regarding my acquisition of the coin, I was lucky to win at auction (after several failed attempts on similar coins that ended up selling beyond what I was willing to pay!).  Of course, I was thrilled by the results bestowed by NGC Ancients graders.

Returning back to the Sulla denarius, I actually also own that particular coin, and it is an important part of my Roman Empire collection since Sulla's rise to power as Rome's dictator in many ways paved the way for Caesar's rise, which in turn paved the way for Rome's transition from Republic to Empire.  My next Journal Entry will feature that particular coin (which I purchased already encapsulated by NGC Ancients).

Interesting indeed!

I hope this doesn't seem to be confusing, but to be comprehensive on this point, it should be noted prior to this time, there was one example wherein a living Roman was depicted on a Greek coin.  That Roman was Titus Quinctius Falmininus, and the coin was a Greek gold stater that probably intended to honor Flamininus' 197 BC victory over Philip V of Macedon.

There was also at least one provincial issue, from Corinth about 45 BC, that also shows Julius Caesar portrait, and also existed during his lifetime.

So, when I say my denarius  is an example of the first time a living Roman appeared on "Rome's coins", I mean first time a living Roman appeared on "official" Roman /Imperatorial/Imperial coins!

Sorry to numismatically geek out here on the details here, but I thought I thought I would share more of my research!

thisistheshow,

A good question...I suppose at the time this coin was struck, Julius Caesar had already produced multiple other issues in his name. So I guess in that respect it wasn't uncommon seeing the CAESAR inscription.  Over time, the term "Caesar" was applied generically as a title for the Emperor's heir, if not the Emperor himself (so seeing CAESAR as part of a longer inscription would actually become rather ubiquitous) .  On this particular coin, I am personally struck by the size and placement of the legend CAESAR, and the complete lack of any other inscription (for example, there is no advertisement of his various titles, etc.)

Revenant -

I totally agree with your comment on go with your gut...if your adrenaline isn't pumping- in a good way! - when you pull the trigger / enter the bid / hit "buy," then, absolutely, something isn't right!

Just Bob - Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it, and this particular coin is one of my favorites!

thisistheshow,

That is a very good question, and tt is difficult to answer for certain. I can't seem to find a definitive reference on that (if anyone has any idea, please post, especially anyone with access to RPC vol 1, which I am sadly missing). 

I did search Coin Archives, a popular auction site for ancients, and, assuming I did the search correctly, I didn't find a single example of a Deiotarus coin (of any type) ever recorded being sold at auction, which surprised me .  I searched Vcoins and MA-shops, which are perhaps the two most popular website for selling ancients, and at the moment for sale I found only a single coin for sale on the former site (similar, but not exactly like mine since that coin did not have the reverse monogram, which at least for me is extremely  desirable), and I found no coins of Deiotarus' for sale at the latter site).  It is hard to put in context...for what it is worth, I own a coin of Sejanus', and there are supposedly only 17 of that coin in existence, and I found more examples in auction than i did for Deiotarus' coins..

So, while I can't know for sure, I would say Deiotarus' coins are "extremely rare", I've only ever seen one with the reverse monogram, and I purchased it! 

It is interesting how extreme rarity is relatively accessible for the ancient coin collector compared to how extreme rarity is valued for modern coins, especially those that are avidly collected.  I have several ancient coins where under 20 or even under 10 specimens are known to exist, and I have a few examples where my particular coin is probably unique.  It is amazing to think the probability that some of my coins represent the last surviving example. Such rarity in ancient coins is relatively accessible, at least the values are not astronomical with extreme rarity, depending on the popularity of the attribution.  For a relatively obscure ancient ruler like Deiotarus,  such coins, even if extremely rare, are not  desired avidly enough to run up the prices (luckily for me!).  In a future post to my Journal, I will discuss this point some more, since it is a theme in several of my Owner's comments, stay tuned...

Thank you both for your comments! I am glad you enjoyed reading, stay tuned for more...I am going through all my Owner's Comments for my Roman Empire collection and making edits, and those that I am particularly fond of I will post here in my journal as well.  Cheers!

I agree that for such a great general to die from falling one his horse seems suspicious, right? I have not found a lot of speculation about foul play regarding Drusus...of course, many other Julio-Claudians certainly were either murdered or died under highly suspicious circumstances.  I am not an expert, but my opinion from what I have researched regarding Drusus is that the fall was probably an unfortunate accident.

Again, thanks for the feedback on my Owner's Comments.

thisistheshow,

You are welcome, and I really appreciate you comment.  This sort of feedback helps motivate me to complete my research and posting of Owner's Comments on *all* the coins in my Roman Empire collection.  It has been an amazing journey of exploration and learning for me; so far, I have completed researching and posting Owner's Comments on about 90% of the coins in my collection (of course, I am still growing the collection, albeit very slowly at this point).  To that end, I will continue to keep up this journal, so that anyone interested can be advised when I update my collection.

4 hours ago, Mk123 said:

kohaku, I have a question for you......I asked in a ancients forum on another site about slabbed ancients and many do not like them and gave many reasons. Obviously you like slabbed which I do too but did you once collect raw and then decided to go slabbed for a certain reason?

Thanks!

Mk123,

I don't have any particular reason, but I do enjoy many benefits for grading and encapsulation of my ancient coins with NGC Ancients.  The majority of my coins I purchased "raw" and submitted to NGC Ancients for grading and encapsulation.  I also will say that I do have certain coins that I purchased and decided to keep "raw", since I enjoy the tactile sensation of holding in hand directly (even if their non-certified status precludes them from inclusion in my Roman Empire NGC Ancients Custom Set, darn!).  The main reasons I like slabbing the vast majority of my coins is the assurance/second opinion from an expert (which I am not) regarding the identity and condition of my ancient coins.

I understand the counter-argument, and, I admit that slabbing ancients is not for everyone.  I especially agree that it can be risky in the sense that NGC's opinion might not come back as favorable as one would like, and/or certain flaws might be brought to light.  For me, I prefer to know what an expert thinks, and with open eyes I can enjoy each coin, and, one day, presumably, sell or otherwise pass on each coin along with an open and honest description of its identity and condition.

If you want to gain more insight into my perspective, I refer to my Owner's Comments for my Agrippina Sr. sestertius...

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=16365

I suppose it is a matter of personal preference, and the coin can always be "released from bondage" if its new owner prefers, so I don't see much downside.