Insider

Any seasoned veterans almost ready to retire?  How many days?

Experiment first.  That reside will come off easily; however, lots of coins have been damaged when they are being dried after conservation.  An acetone dip will air dry BUT it may take some dips in fresh acetone to completely remove the film.  I expect NCS could do a great job on your coins but they are not worth the price of using that service.

On 12/11/2020 at 12:16 PM, RWB said:

"...Save the humor."

Is that a new tax exempt charity? Is it related to "Send in the Clowns" or "Good Morning Vietnam?" There are semantic challenges out there for us all.

....and, yes, many will catch the error - the Stardust closed a decade ago. Nothing left but the sign in a museum and some mobsters' bones in the foundation. Maybe a trove of silver dollars is in that same dirt....?

 Col. Jessup often posted things as this that only he could understand. 

41 minutes ago, RWB said:

This doubling happens when two coins like each other a lot. They snuggle close in a bag of other coins and get feisty, and , well....stuff happens .... and one of the coins starts to double. But then they got separated in a coin counting machine and never see each other again and one is left with only partial doubling caused when the machine separated the two coins. They try writing letters to each other but since they have no hands (or paper) that does not work well. And one ends up doing two shows a night in the Stardust chorus line in Las Vegas, but gets fired for the partial doubling showing...and, well, it's a long sad story....ending in a quarter slot machine in the men's restroom at a discount gas station, edge worn down, copper showing -- not a pretty sight.

Roger,

Everyone knows that you are a good researcher, acclaimed writer, and experienced numismatist. IMO,  ATS made a very bad decision.  Yes, I realize that the OP's question was answered in the first post BUT I'll guarantee that someone, somewhere in the world, is going to start explain this characteristic as two snuggling coins!   Please save the humor. 

4 hours ago, Prethen said:

This is the thing that really causes me a lot of concern/thought. If I think it really doesn't belong in a Details holder (perhaps the signs of cleaning are not that bad/obvious/problematic for the overall appearance) because that would doom the coin to be decisively discounted, then I need to break it out. But then I don't wish to give the appearance I'm trying to "put one over" on anyone. If I'm going to point out the hairlines/whatever, then I might as well leave it in the holder and suffer the subsequent pricing.

That said, one of my recent Details grades is of a coin that the only signs of cleaning I can find appear to be an obverse "wipe" going from the left field onto the device. I think I've gone crosseyed looking for more evidence of that coin being a problem. However, I will say the cheek of the liberty head (3CN) is a bit shiny so that might have clued the grader in that something was not quite right in the first place.

I find that the TPGS try to straight grade as many coins as they can.  Therefore, it would be an extremely rare occurrence for a normal coin to be detailed.  If the TPGS puts a some problem on the label, its on the coin.  IMO, the ONLY time a collector is morally obligated to point out defects on a coin is when they sell it to a NON-DEALER.    

"Market acceptable" is different for every single person.  Finalizers at the TPGS attempt to keep the "line" the same for everyone and every coin.  The problem started for all collectors long ago when coin dealers snatched the grading process from non-dealer numismatists who had no "skin" in the game.  The numismatists just graded coins as they saw them at a time when grading was much more strict.  The truth is, both the dealers and the numismatists were doing things correctly.   Graders were ranking coins by their degree of preservation but that way of doing things was contrary to the way long-time successful business dealers who did have their "skin" on the line.  They knew the market and controlled it.  Image how you would feel if you paid $1000 for a Mint state coin and several of your peers would give you an immediate profit yet when your customer sent it in to be graded it came back valued much lower because the numismatists in their "Ivory Tower" had no idea of the "Real World." 

News flash:  I will tell every collector to learn to grade.   While you are learning, get your coin out of a details holder.  When you sell it to a dealer, it is up to them to know the value of the coin as is.   Many dealers try to "put-one-over" on the TPGS's.  That's what makes things fun.  When NGC rejects their coins they get sent to us.  It's like stealing money but they continue to try to get the coin slabbed. 

On 12/4/2020 at 8:37 AM, Prethen said:

These are great suggestions. I have tried looking at the coins under a 75W incandescent and will attempt with an LED. I do have a halogen I can experiment with.

However, I'm very curious, what do the graders use that make it so simple for them to just spend a handful of seconds trying to grade a coin when the cleaning becomes apparent to them? From what I've learned in the past (mainly ANA Summer Seminar), graders don't typically use magnification and don't spend anywhere near the time/effort I've put in with tilting a coin this way and that way, in and out of the light, etc. Is there a technique that really works best?

IMHO, an experienced numismatist/professional grader/successful major dealer, knowledgeable collector, etc. can detect a coin that is not in original condition from at least 8 inches away while still in a flip using their eyes alone.  The key for me in order of importance is color, luster type (a polished coin has luster - the reflection of light from its surface - just not original Mint luster), and the pattern of the luster (halo effect). 

When the coin is removed from the flip and examined more closely, parallel hairlines may be present when the coin is tipped and rotated in the correct orientation of light that makes them visible. The condition of a surface w/o hairlines is an indication of chemical cleaning.

Then you need to decide if the imperfections you see are "Market Acceptable."   

Just heard that all the Rosen Hotels are going to be CLOSED in January!  What the...

I change my reservation to July.

Thanks Mark.  Even if they had the show, the convention center was limiting the number of folks allowed in.

4 hours ago, RWB said:

I'm aware of the rumor, but I've seen nothing. Given the vehement anti-Bolshevik policies in the US, and explicit rejection of Soviet gold in any form, sending DE dies to the "bad guys" would make no sense. It was difficult to get basic humanitarian aid to them during the NEP or afterward during the famine.

At one time they were our allies.  That's when I heard it was done.  Hard to believe any old dies would be around.    

@RWB

Any info on US $20 dies being sent to Russia to strike Saints?

I predicted something more useful along the same lines as your AI Grader.  

IMO, something much more useful that you could charge a membership fee for would be AI (Foreign/ancient coin) IDENTIFIER!

Download an image and find out what the coin/token is.  I predict a TPGS may do this eventually now that they are imaging stuff.

HOW ABOUT IT NGC?

1 hour ago, UCROA said:

 Have you visited ucroa.net? Very interesting alternative coin grading website, I really like the concept myself.

I guess you are running it.  Good Luck.  

This is easy to answer.  Just call each of the four major services and ask or download their submission forum.  As this is an NGC web site, that's all I'll write.  

9 minutes ago, punkaccountant said:

I'm new and have a limited perspective so I don't know all the issues. I agree with this statement to a degree. I've been on other forums where people are downright mean in their criticism. I wish in those instances that people were kinder/gentler.

What you may not understand at the moment is it takes all kinds.  Some folks like to be sarcastic and mean.  Other long time members get really tired of the same old questions. If they decide to help and then are not believed or argued with, the devil comes out and others will often join in.  There is some good stuff posted on forums and many folks who join don't post at all.  They just read the posts.  I will never understand that as I'm full of questions.

Bottom line, very few here truly know who we really are.  We are only judged by our posts and counter posts.  Have fun and who cares what others think they know about us.  In the big picture, this is an extremely tiny place populated by all us little people with opinions.   

26 minutes ago, Greenstang said:

Is there a reason you have posted the same coins on three different forums?  It doesn't really change anything.

I'll guess it is because he wanted to show his coins to different people.

39 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

They were worth their silver content before they were graded and they're worth their silver content, now that they've been graded.

Why did you get them graded?

I'll guess he is a novice and thought they were high grade.   I suggest every collector both new and long-time send a few of their coins in for grading to see how they are doing.  Doing this often saves a big disappointment in the future. 

4 hours ago, 1917 said:

....when you enter a coin forum, and find a thread dedicated to bashing a specific member's teaching and posting... you know you're on ngc...

Whenever, anyone posts anything they should be prepared for anything.   Criticism is a good thing.  That's how we get better unless we are too lazy to learn about white balance when using florescent light.   

2 hours ago, brg5658 said:

I will not retract my disagreement, because I strongly disagree with you.  If you are trying to teach someone to take quality photos, you don't start with the 2-3 pages of the "advanced" sub-section of a book - a section very limited to very specific and quirky examples of utility.  I'd argue less than 1% of photos of coins benefit by tilting.  We're not here to discuss the fringe methods, the intent of my post was to offer lighting advice for most coin photographs.

You make it seem as though because the word "tilting' was mentioned in Goodman's book you are somehow vindicated.  It does not vindicate or support your suggestion.  All of the limitations mentioned by those of us here are also mentioned by Goodman, and tilting a coin into a light source is not a recommended method of photographing a coin.  Period.

No one turned you into a "bad guy" (is this your "snowflake" coming through?).  Those of us with actual experience in taking quality coin photos simply told you why what you were suggesting was not what would benefit most.  I have always offered answers (and very detailed ones) - so I have no clue what you're complaining about with my supposed lack of "forthcoming" answers.  That's a bald-faced lie.  I spent a good amount of time explaining depth of field to you, with actual measurements and scientific quantities - you completely ignored it and acted as though you'd ignore physics and optics laws in favor of your own experiments.  Stubborn as usual.

 Well that explains it. "All of the limitations mentioned by those of us here are also mentioned by Goodman, and tilting a coin into a light source is not a recommended method of photographing a coin.  Period."  You posted about "ALL."  While "ALL" may be the subject of your OP,  I posted ONLY about tipping the coin exactly as we do when examining it in hand. That's because informed and knowledgeable numismatists far above my pay grade recommend that all of us tip (and rotate) a coin in the light. 

I am at a total loss to discover why something that works perfectly and is highly recommended (tipping a coin during examination) is virtually never to be done while taking its image.  I've been imaging coins using my microscopes for almost fifty years and I have found that the best way to replicate what I am trying to capture is to tip the coin at least 80% of the time.    

I quoted the advanced section of the book YOU recommended because after reading your OP and seeing your images, I was under the impression that you were an "advanced" photographer. The book also proved that I was not pulling "fluff" out of the air. 

PS  LOL, I'm sure you know the discussion where you refused to defend any of your misguided and uninformed opinions.  You just continued to add more nonsense.  When anyone disagrees with me about anything (this thread is an example) I'm ready to defend my opinion AND change it if I become more informed. 

13 hours ago, brg5658 said:

Please post your own thread with these pictures.  I will see the thread.  

Agree.  I apologize for "high-jacking" your informative thread. 

However, you disagreed with a friendly SUGGESTION I made for everyone here.  The author of a book you recommended made the same suggestion, you refused to try it because you didn't wish to alter your setup, then eventually suggested the same result we both suggested could be accomplished by altering your setup (it could).   Worst of all, I'm turned into the bad guy because I will not quit attempting to get you to RETRACT your disagreement. 

Unfortunately, as with our other disagreements, no answers from you are forthcoming.     

I'll post my images in a GTG format when I can copy them.  I've turned over a new leaf.    I don't wish to make anyone feel foolish when they cannot tell if the coin was angled to the lens or not when photographed (with no adjustment made to the lighting).

Until our next discussion, thanks to all posters for the photography lesson!     

But some of us  should learn to be more gracious and empathetic when posting with others.  

Yikes!  I just tried to post an image Emailed to me from the camera and it will not open!  Color me a loser so far .  I'll need to get someone familiar with our system to allow me to copy and paste the images in case my terms are met  and we get to play: "Tipped  or Not Tipped ."  

48 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

None of what you’ve experienced or written means that Insider couldn’t reach a much larger audience by methods other than his “time honored teaching and testing method“.

The audience here is very tiny.   While I don't think any member should be the subject of a discussion (except those who are missed for some reason or another), my posts and the criticism of my images and teaching method has generated some "life" to the forum.  Additionally, I'll bet all of us have learned something on this forum in the last month.  I have. 

Anyway, as the popularity of this forum increases, perhaps you and others will post a sample quiz with the proper images so I'll see the correct way to teach.  For now, I prefer to ask is this a ______ or describe what you see in this image; rather than this is a  ________.    

1 hour ago, brg5658 said:

Except - as we've explain to you probably 10 times now - for all the reasons why that isn't a best practice (loss of sharpness, geometric distortion, etc.). 

Skip, you are free to do whatever you'd like, but that doesn't mean it's good practice or up to par of professional images. 

We're waiting going on 2 weeks now for your supposed good images you took with your company's multi-thousand dollar automated equipment. 

 

I've had them on my computer since last week!   I thought you were done with "OUR" discussion.  I'll post them for everyone but ONLY if YOU promise to play the game:  

TIPPED or NOT TIPPED.      It will prove a coin can be tilted in the light, in focus, and no one can tell which is which.  

PS  And you and others critique my images so I'll get better.  It was my first time and the camera was pre-set.  I made no adjustments and only took the image.  

1 hour ago, RWB said:

The two photos above, show this for which correct color is not needed. Either would be OK in B&W (grayscale). But correct color balance presents a coin or other item more accurately than otherwise.

Still no good but the bubble pattern is visible.

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Sarcasm aside for a moment - I wonder if his answer would have been different, had he viewed properly white color balanced pictures of the entire coin?

I seriously doubt it so please, please, please.  Soap-like multi-bubbles on a coin OF ANY COLOR are BBBBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD!   Dry lacquer or glue coatings often include bubbles actual air bubbles but this is different.

On 11/1/2020 at 5:12 AM, AstroStu1 said:

Thanks to @brg5658 for the guide, it's similar to what I had done a decade ago.  I left the boards here for many years because I got busy with work, and apparently my extensive, vast post history disappeared so it looks like this is only my first post!  I thought I'd check them out because I've been re-inventorying (auditing) my collection for insurance purposes.  It's nice to see helpful, educational posts like the original one on this thread.  But the rest of the thread reminds me why I stopped reading and posting to internet forums years ago.  Sigh.

And now to pile on the dumpster fire before I take my leave again, speaking as an occasional professional photographer (not my main job, but it's a job): As others have said, depth-of-focus has to do with the lens' aperture, the distance between the lens and the object to focus on, and the focal length, as well as what's called the "circle of confusion" which has to do with imperfections in the lens' ability to focus light perfectly.  Almost always, you want a coin to appear to be fully in focus.  Almost always, you want it to have the correct geometry, meaning that if it's a perfect circle in real life, you want it to appear as a perfect circle in the photograph, without needing to digitally (or in film, manually) manipulate it.  Unless you have a tilt-shift lens, which just makes things more complicated, there's no reason to tilt the coin to highlight different things, and it will make parts of the coin be more out-of-focus, whether you can tell that or not is a separate question.  But usually with this sort of macro photography that is coin photography, it is a very shallow depth-of-focus so any perturbation will put it out-of-focus.  As has been stated, the reason to tilt the coin is almost always because you want to highlight something different via lighting angle.  Which gets to the original point of this thread: Instead of doing that with tilt, which makes the geometry distorted and can make parts of the coin be out-of-focus, just adjust your lights!  Plain and simple.  Really not sure why there are 5 pages of yelling about this.

I find that it is much easier and quicker to tilt the coin and rotate it under a light source that never moves.