cladking

I've been looking at and buying these sets since 1982, long before anyone even thought of collecting high grade moderns. My experience is necessarily representative of mintage. You can find lots of pretty clean and attractive MS-64's (what I call "gemmy) but these coins are not well struck nor are the dies in good condition. None are well struck and no dies are new. I have no doubt they are fine for the buyers and they are attractive coins, but Gems they are not.

What I call "Gem" (MS-65) might grade anywhere between MS-64 and MS-67 but it depends on the coin and date. 1984 cents are one where we disagree a lot. Almost every single one of these has two major problems; not one or the other but both. They have rough ugly surfaces and they have severe plating issues. For this reason coins without any marking on them often grade high. I believe in a "bump" for tough dates but no more than one grade. In addition to the two problems there are often problems with spotting and tarnish as well. Nice attractive specimens are not at all common. To be MS-65 a coin must be Gem in every aspect rather than just very little marking. Many moderns are gem in no aspect, no characteristic, and in no way at all. They are simply mediocre coins. 1984 cents rarely even approach mediocracy. Mint set coins are well struck by new dies but have every other problem associated with the date. Yes. There are hundreds more, even thousands more. But potential collectors number in the millions and attractive 1976 Ikes number in the thousands or, at most, tens of thousands. I haven't seen them but I'd wager any MS-68 is a true Gem even for '82-P quarters. Probably some of the lower grades are true Gems as well. I've been told that most of the high grades come from souvenir sets. I know these sets. And I know you can't find a true Gem in them on the basis of the fact I've seen so many and nothing even comes close.

To date all movements in modern coins have been explosive. This is because there is no supply and no demand. When demand materializes changes are explosive.

There's not much difference between a '50-D and '71 nickel except the date and the fact the latter is 10x scarcer and 24x cheaper.

Those '50's era 100L can be tough even in MS-60. Really nice choice coins are much tougher yet. Collectors knew better than to save stainless steel so they missed these.

I've always had great difficulty locating these. I have a few nice choice nickel rolls but all my dimes and quarters are singles. These are greatly underappreciated. Not only did so many of these corrode away but most looked like junk before they turned to dust. Panama is hot. They have some nice coins.

1969 25c in MS-65 Currently has a Redbook price of $10 but actually sells for as little as a couple dollars should list for over $100 if there is ever any demand. Any such list has to be predicated on the assumption that demand actually arises. You'll know there is a little bit of demand when every coin shop maintains a supply of moderns. 1984 1c in true Gem (MS-65 and attractive) lists for 30c and May be a $500 coin. 1976 type I Ike in MS-63 list for $10 in MS-63 but nice choice specimens could easily and quickly approach $50. 1982-P quarter in true Gem is a $1000 coin. I'm not talking about the mushy strikes the services grade as "MS-66 or 7" but rather well made, well struck, solid strikes by new dies and clean. Any pre-1971 nickel in Gem FS should at least triple. 1971 nickels in chBU list for 75c but are really $30 coins. I could go on and on because most moderns are grossly undervalued due to lack of demand. The 1971 nickel, for instance, is at least ten times scarcer than the '50-D nickel which once sold at hundreds of dollars in today's money and still sells for 24 times as much as the far scarcer '71. Most circulating moderns are far scarcer than older coins but have lower prices because they are ignored. But it's a little above the level of chBU where moderns are really tough. Coins in the past were made to far higher standards so most are quite attractive in pristine condition. Collectors didn't need to go rummaging through rolls and bags to find one nice enough for his collection. One didn't need to travel the country trying to find a nice coin of the current date. But most moderns were issued with multiple major problems. They are poorly centered messes weakly struck by worn dies and then scratched and gouged in the mint's handling equipment and then roughly handled on the way to the bank. "Gemmy" just means they lack ANY of these problems or suffer only a little from them. These are coins that look like the 1907 BU barber quarter that people got at the bank in 1907. Nice attractive MS-64 and better is where so many moderns are tough. It's not that there are lots of lower grades, there aren't, but there are very few nice attractive coins of most moderns of all denominations. Of course there are many millions of some of these coins like 1979 cents which is why everyone thinks all moderns are common but even MS-65 '79 cents can be elusive because so many are scratched. Of course with millions of these out there there could be lots and lots of gemmy coins but nobody knows because nobody collects them. They don't collect them because of the foolish notion that since '79 pennies are common then '76 type I Ikes must be common as well. Price increases in other country's moderns have been absolutely explosive when they occur. Indian mint sets went from a few dollars each to a few thousand. I would expect the same thing for US moderns if they are ever collected. Certainly it will be more muted here because this is and was a major country where India was highly limited in its early days and has grown explosively. People didn't save early Indian coinage. A few did save US.

It is a foregone conclusion because many of these coins have everything going for them. Circulating coins throughout history have appealed to lots of collectors which is why we have uncirculated barber dimes as well as ancients. But we also have nice XF coins from series that became almost universally worn in large part because collectors also saved these coins from further circulation. Most people seem to think that if they ignore moderns they'll just go away but AG 1889 indian cents don't just go away and neither will moderns despite abuse and neglect. Very few circulation issue moderns have done very well since WWII but some have seen stupendous increases not so much because they are "hot" or popular. Indeed, many catalogers won't even report higher prices on moderns because they believe it offends the "real collectors" for who they print their guides. Prices when they do increase increase because there is suddenly some little demand. Thus we see higher prices on things like Chinese, Russian, and Indian coins. There are many beautiful, historic, and important coins (most NCLT) made in the last 75 years with tiny mintages, even mintages well below most classics and they go begging as well. This can not persist. It's already been 75 years so maybe another 75 years but don't bet on it. There are a large number of new collectors and the only real difference between old coins and new is their age.

By most definitions of "hot" no moderns circulating coins has ever been hot. If you extend the definition to include things like the '70-S sm date cent or the 1983 quarter in BU then no "hot" circulating modern has ever decreased in value. The reason for this is simple; most people hate moderns. In order to be hot a lot of people need to buck that trend and then the coin can remain strong on its own merits. In 1975 a 1960 sm dt cent was the same price as the 1970 sm dt cent. The value of the '60 cent has eroded to the point it's worth less $2 now if you can find a buyer. The '70 wholesales at $40 and would be far higher but few people collect modern one cent coins. Many 1960 sm dts are Gem so it's hard to get a premium. Very very few '70 sm dts are Gem but few seem to even know it. As long as circulating moderns are ignored there might never be one that went from hot to not.

All of these coins weren't made in the billions and none of them were saved. Now even those that were made in the billion have few survivors and virtually every one that does survive is either a cull or in very poor condition. Even attractive circulated '65 quarters with a mintage near two billion are getting hard to find in nice attractive F or better. Even roll searching won't turn up a nice attractive VG or better 1969. People have been talking about the high mintages, ugliness, and uncollectibility of these coins since 1965. The common wisdom was wrong in 1965 and it's far more wrong today. There are plenty of nice examples made every year by the mint but you actually had to go look for them because there were not enough made that you'd even notice. I've already gotten rid of most of my clad and it's all been at a profit; a very modest profit to be sure but it leaves me with a few safety deposit boxes full of nice Gems for which I have a very low cost basis. This includes many never seen coins like Gem '69 quarters that obviously didn't originate in mint sets. There are too many coins made since 1965 that have been overlooked to even list. Collectors missed the boat. Instead of setting aside nice gemmy '76 dimes they were too busy stashing rolls and bags of bicentennial coins. Pretty soon it will be so hard to complete any set from circulation that hundreds of thousands of beginning and young collectors will have no choice but to search elsewhere. In the meantime the last of the mint sets are being consumed by a market that places no value on moderns. Sets that are not being consumed by the market are succumbing to tarnish so as the last of the coins disappear from circulation the mint sets will be gone as well. Then I won't hear any more about coins made in the billions aren't really collectible. Obviously this drawdown of mint sets and disappearance of key dates in change is going to be dependent on the continuing demand. This demand is still quite tiny but has been growing steadily since 1995. It is so tiny it could increase several fold.

Of course you realize that I'm very curious what you have in terms of original rolls of eagle reverse quarters. I suppose you mostly have the Philly issues. In the early days did you seek out the better rolls or better dates or just set aside what was available? Did you save the dime rolls as well? I run into so little of this sort of thing that it's hard to get a feel for what's out there.

I am quite aware there are some clad dime and quarter rolls out there. I talk to cherry pickers who search them for Gems and varieties. These rolls despite their highly limited availability have even less demand. At least until quite recently they had almost no demand but suddenly they seem to be in experiencing significant demand. Of course all or most of this demand is being supplied largely by mint set coins. Perhaps owners of original rolls (however many exist) aren't selling enough to satisfy demand. Since the supply of mint set coins dwarfs the supply of original rolls this does make sense. As I maintain, there aren't even enough mint sets to satisfy a mass market. Prices are not substantially higher yet but if the demand continues or grows I see no other possible outcome.

We're talking apples and oranges here. I'm talking about original BU rolls and you're talking about mint set rolls. While most mint set rolls sell at a significant premium there are several dates that trade at Greysheet which is based on original rolls. Greysheet price for the non-existent original rolls are so close to face value and the demand so limited that it's hardly surprising there would be no interest at your coin club. It is a little surprising that you're seeing mint set rolls but it just goes to show what I'm saying; there are no rolls and the mint sets are gone. If you ever do see any original rolls I'd be interested in knowing what dates they are. While I like mint set rolls a lot potential buyers should be aware that most of these rolls are cast offs. Cherry pickers go through large numbers of sets and remove the varieties and Gems. Some will even cut deep into the chBU's. You want to look at these rolls before buying them. The best chBU rolls are missing only the top 1% of coins and the bottom 40%. There could be some sellers putting mint set coins into wrappers because there is all of a sudden some demand for clad BU rolls. These will be easy to spot with some experience because most mint set coins do not look like the original roll coins. A good rule of thumb is if you see a BU roll of these coins it is NOT an original roll and is merely another 40 or 50 cut up mint sets. Original rolls are almost non-existent and tend to be low grade anyway.

Yes!!! Exactly. If the coins do come in, and they do in highly limited numbers, they go straight into the cash register. Every year fewer and fewer come in. Just like BU rolls most of the coins in the cash register today are mint set coins.

Banks were not set up to honor such requests. No doubt some asked anyway and no doubt banks sometimes accommodated them. But the fact is nobody wanted the coins so the number of requests was very limited. There were more requests for pennies and nickels. Most of the banks I walked into refused me. Even my own bank thought it was strange I wanted a bag of quarters and made me jump through hoops to get them.

No. Not exactly. Some dates were made pretty well and chBU in the rolls were common. Some dates were made so well that even Gems appear. But other dates can be really tough nice. '69 quarters were one of the worst which is likely why these don't come in rolls. But dates like the '72-D are much nicer and there were as many as twenty nice coins in the typical roll. '76 quarters are much higher quality on average but the higher grades are not more common. Some dates are tough but Gems can be more readily available. Each date and mint is unique.

Just to be clear I like the post 1999 coinage and save some of it myself. I collect some as well. I believe opportunities abound to both make money and learn a great deal from collecting the coins. But the fact is all of the coins since 1999 have been saved in some (limited) quantity and some in vast quantities. I believe all coins are collectible but it seems I might be the only one who believes pre-'99 clad is collectible.

Until 1999 the mint sold no rolls.

You can also find some penny and nickel rolls dated from '68 to '99 but it's not like you can trade in 5 1969 nickel rolls for a roll of '69 quarters. You can also find rolls of '76 quarters without too much trouble. I'd be surprised if '97 and '98 quarters are really scarce. I've been in dozens of coin shops and scoured coin shows for decades and haven't seen even a couple hundred rolls and NONE AT ALL in 25 years. What I do see is pennies, nickels, and the occasional half or dollar. I see stacks of pre-1965 BU rolls and since 1999 I see vast numbers of post-'99 coinage. Maybe it's hard to see what's not there.

Bu rolls are not interchangeable. Yes, there are millions of 1999 to date rolls because people started collecting from pocket change again in 1999. But if you're looking for a nice choice roll of '69 quarters it doesn't matter how many rolls of Delaware quarters or 2009 Lincolns you can find.

...And how many 1965 to 1999 dime and quarter rolls do you see?

Even today Greysheet price on a roll of something like 'a '72 quarter roll is $15. These Philly rolls exist in tiny numbers (even fewer than the Denver) and most of the coins are simply ugly. These simply can't be sold easily. There is very limited demand since there are virtually no Gems or varieties to be found in them. The cost of shipping is prohibitive and there will be no local demand no matter where you are. Such coins simply tend to be spent. If the owner doesn't spend them than his heirs will or the dealer who buys them will. People imagine not only that there are millions of coins saved back and that they are all nice chBU coins jam packed with Gems but the typical '72 BU quarter roll might have one chBU coin in it. The rest are ugly. The ,long and short of it is that even though there are so few '72 quarters in original rolls these have a very high attrition rate. Each date of eagle reverse clads is different but no date is truly "common" in BU rolls. The '82's and '83's came closest to being common in rolls but most of those rolls are long gone now days. The '65 to '68 were also saved but these are gone as well. All that's left are the mint sets but they've been decimated and contrary to popular belief Gems are not extremely common in mint sets. The most common account for 6 to 8% of production and the least common less than one half a percent of production. I've seen hundreds of 1982 Philly souvenir sets and have never seen a quarter that even approaches being a true Gem. Even chBU's are none too common in these sets. Even if we could find hundreds or thousands of BU roll collectors it would have little impact on the availability of chBU's of most dates. But the rolls and collectors aren't out there or they'd be visible.

I was much more referring to collectors of 1968 -'99 clad rolls and especially those collecting the rolls in and of themselves. I've met or conversed with several individuals who buy rolls but they are cherry picking Gem or varieties. Frequently the castoffs are just put into circulation. The mint has been selling various BU rolls since 1999. Before this there was no demand and today there is virtually no supply. Very few original rolls were ever saved and the attrition on the ones that were saved is extremely high because of their low price and because they get picked over. Fewer than a couple thousand rolls of something a '72-D quarter were saved and the attrition on these is sky high as collectors seek things like DDR's, type h reverses, and Gems. It certainly wouldn't leave many for collectors. I know several people who buy such rolls but I'm aware of no specific individual who collects them.

I've never actually met a BU roll collector since the BU roll market collapse in 1964. In those days there were lots of them and the government greatly overestimated the impact they were having on getting coins into circulation. I'm quite confident there are at least a hundred of them out there and in light of the fact that sellers of BU rolls are proliferating their numbers might well be growing. I just don't know what's happening to most of these coins being retailed as BU rolls. I have no doubt at least some of the rolls will be split up or cherry picked but there are numerous possibilities. Numismatic News in 1984 reported on an east coast vending company owner who had set aside a bag of every date and mint since 1965. They said at the time that after running stories about the scarcity of '82-P quarters for weeks this bag was the only BU coins that had turned up! I believe I've seen coins from this bag and the coins tend to be typical. Ironically the numbers of '82 coins saved in rolls and bags increased substantially in 1982 because it was widely known that there would be no mint sets. But still fewer than 80,000 '82-P quarters were saved and attrition on these is substantial. While there is no doubt that the coins saved out in BU are superior on average to typical coins they are still very poor because these were made so badly and because Gems were released in highly limited geographical areas. Attrition on intact rolls is astronomical because of the high demand for singles. A nice chBU roll of these can be had (in theory) for $235 Greysheet bid and then the coins sold on eBay for $100 each!!! Of course most rolls are typical and will contain only a very few $100 coins. When I started setting aside clad quarters in 1975 I wanted an original BU roll set as well as 40 of the nicest specimens I could find from any source. But I quickly found stoppers to a BU roll set. The 1969 was impossible even back then without sending off for it and by the late-'70's it was too late even for this. Then most of the early dates were just awful in rolls. Many rolls had nothing but very poor coins and I saw no point in saving them and no pleasure from owning them so they were just spent. A roll collection of nice coins with nice end coins or even just 40 nice specimens made for circulation would be a major achievement and source of pride. I do value the Gems I've found in circulation a great deal and have set them aside all along. Many varieties don't exist in mint sets. You might say I'm a frustrated BU roll collector. Some of the most fun I've had collecting moderns besides all the interesting people I've met is chasing down Gems and varieties in circulation. I should have done more of it and maybe a little less time sitting in coin shops looking through their stacks of mint sets.

Of course the implication is the BU roll prices listed by Greysheet might have no meaning at all if the demand for moderns is for nice MS-64 and better coins. Many BU rolls have no coins this nice. Even mint set rolls might have as few as 2 or 3 nice gemmy coins. '76 Ike rolls assembled years ago would have two nice coins and any assembled recently will have one nice coin but it's skunked (needs cleaning). This might explain why common rolls are selling for prices as much as 15X Greysheet. Perhaps I missed seeing the move. It would explain part of the reason prices on eBay are far higher. Nice attractive clad is hard to find and every year it gets harder. Even MS-60 to MS-63 coins are far less common than people believe and almost all clad in such low grade can be very unattractive.