James_OldeTowne

I convinced my step-father to get this for a side set we're thinking about building. It's partially just for bragging rights and as a conversation piece. It's currently the ONLY 1989 Lincoln cent to receive a STAR in any grade (God knows why). Maybe once I have it in hand I'll know why it was favored above all it's comrades. Any guesses?

I'll guess it's going to be prooflike in hand.

If the Supreme Court can't describe pornography, but knows it when it sees it... how can you expect a mere numismatist to describe the subtle differences between mint state grades?

I am not aware that the Supreme Court claims to ascertain what is pornography by "a set of standards". They also do not stamp magazines and other media with stickers indicating so.

However imprecise and/or inconsistent one wants to argue that grading "standards" are, I believe that they are at least conveyed through the actual grading of coins by experts. And that is so, even if those standards don't lend themselves to published explanations which which can't account for anywhere near all of the differences in various coins. So, it's not that there aren't standards, only that they can't be explained on paper in a meaningful way with respect to distinguishing one precise grade from another.

If the standards cannot be expressed, then I must question whether it is useful to state that there actually is a set of standards. The problem is that since a consumer has no written set of standards by which to measure his servicer's activity (the CAC), then he cannot verify that a useful service is being provided. This is why I've questioned several times whether a sticker actually has any purpose.

At any rate, Thank You tradedollarnut and MarkFeld for kindly having the patience to attempt to address all these questions. I do not feel my questions have been answered to any degree of (my) satisfaction, but I genuinely appreciate your efforts (thumbs u .

James, I believe that meaningful written grading standards are possible only for circulated coins and literally perfect, MS/PR 70 coins. Anything which is written to tell people how to distinguish between 2 different numerical grades between MS60 and MS69 is too vague/general/imprecise to allow one to know the difference.

 

Please select any two grades in the MS/PR 60-69 range, provide us with PCGS' or ANACS' published grading standards and tell us how in the heck to apply them in order to tell the difference between those two grades.

Mark, your argument leads me back to a question I posed elsewhere, but which I believe you belittled : If there is no standard which can be conveyed to coin collectors (and let's just focus on the 60-69 range you mentioned), then why do we need stickers at all? What is their purpose? Does a sticker have any meaning or usefulness whatsoever if, in fact, it conveys no new information, since there is no standard by which to judge that information?

Below are five quotes (my bolds) from the CAC website. I would submit to you that these imply some body of set standards by which the CAC is abiding. If this is so, then why has it been deemed inappropriate to explain them? And if there are in fact no CAC stringent grading standards, then why imply that there are?

The green CAC label placed on this holder denotes that this coin has met CAC' stringent grading standards.

The CAC GREEN Label signifies that a coin has met Certified Acceptance Corporation's stringent grading standards.

CAC holds coins to a higher standard so you can be confident in the value of yours. We verify previously graded coins and award our sticker only to those coins that meet the standard for today’s sophisticated buyer

Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.

The CAC examines coins that have already been graded and encapsulated by one of the two leading grading services, the PCGS and the NGC. Each submitted coin that meets the standards of the CAC receives a green sticker.

Be sure to let us know when you find the clear and concise explanation of NGC's grading standards.

I don't know about NGC, but PCGS does describe their standards in a widely available book. At the very least, NGC has a considerable volume of work that seemingly implies a standard (loose though it may be).

It just seems that since "grading standards" evidently plays the pivotal role in CAC's existence, the least they would do is explain what standards are being used (but apparently not guaranteed). To put it another way, how is it advantageous to those who want to use the CAC to be kept uninformed of the actual standards being used to evaluate their coins? Wouldn't CAC want to give buyers of CAC coins every possible advantage in understanding the grading process?

Much of the disdain that I just can't help feeling for the CAC concept is that still, after reading through all this long interview and looking through the website, I still cannot find a clear, concise explanation of exactly what CAC's grading standards are nor how they guarantee those (unknown) standards. Literally thousands of posts on CAC have flowed through threads here and ATS - and still no explanation of what it takes to be A, B, C, or D quality - just an assumption that I, as a consumer, can just trust in an unspoken "standard" and just take the sticker at face value.

And I'm also getting tired of the "it's just a second opinion" argument, and that I can take it or leave it. The fact is, unless there IS a sticker, I won't know whether I'm actually taking or leaving the second opinion! If I am offered a coin that has no sticker, then I have no idea whether it's ever gone through CAC, and you can be darned certain the dealer (unless it's Mark Feld) ain't going to tell me that it failed CAC approval. It may have been rejected - a second opinion that I would not be aware of, and a second opinion that I'm unaware of is no use whatsoever.

OK, I'm really trying to be done with this subject . I'm sure it won't be long before the consoling and cajoling posts come along, "proving" that I have nothing to worry about, and that I need to just trust that the CAC is a great thing .

I got through about a third of it last night. It'll take more than a coke to get through the rest tonight! But I'm taking my best shot at understanding what's being stated here.

Anybody want to share a six pack ?

Nice Quarter Eagle.

 

There are so many with very low mintages

and they are quite scarce ... wonder why

they have not skyrocketed in price ?

It's a question of attrition. Many pieces with low mintages (some absurdly low) happened to be minted when gold currency was scarce, so they were immediately hoarded and survived for decades. On the other hand, some high mintage issues (again, some amazingly high) were produced in an era when bullion value was a little higher than face, so they were immediately shipped off overseas, or were simply melted immediately, and thus they are very scarce today.

This is a highly simplified explanation, but you get the gist.

Nice coins everyone!