Hard Times

From Wikipedia:

"Hard-times tokens are large cent-sized copper tokens, struck from about 1833 through 1843, serving as unofficial currency. These privately made pieces, comprising merchant, political and satirical pieces, were used during a time of political and financial crisis in the United States."

It is unavoidable to separate political satire with the idea of a Hard Times token. Currently one minter makes Hard Times tokens, Clark and Gruber Company. In a previous thread, I suggested an idea for a current HTT publicly, with all sincere intent of presenting in the spirit of political satire. Yet, some of you decided to make it political, even when I invited anyone to take any other political figure of these Hard Times and suggest motifs and sayings for an HTT. Because you made it political (and you know who you are), the thread was poofed. It is too bad, and apparently there is alot of pent up anger going around, because if everyone would have just taken the thread as it was intended, we could have had some fun with it. I was looking forward to others ideas for HTTs for the other political figures - there is certainly alot of materials out there these days and I presented just one and what that person has said. Folks that is how political satire works. Some you apparently can't distinguish political from political satire. I never once stated my views on the current politics and none of you know how I voted, nor did I state my view on that politician or anyone, it was not a political post in any way. I just picked the most obvious figure, what that person had said, and used it for an idea for POLITICAL SATIRE.

Hard Times tokens are one of my passions. Of course I am going to think about new political satire HTT's just after an election and of course I am going to present to what I believed to be open minded colleagues. I was apparently wrong.

What gets me about the poof is all of the hypocrisy by doing so. For example the Carr threads have been totally political and posters have been very nasty towards each other, but NGC thinks these are okay to stand. Emotions and accusations on each side have been high, but NGC lets them stand. Same with Langbord threads, yet poofs mine with no political intent, and then sends me a warning for politcal threads. One word NGC - Yikes.

As long as there are some that hijack every thread and twist it here, and seem to have nothing better to do with their time, and you know who you are, then, a rational discussion of any lively subject is not going to happen. Hence, I am gone, you can PM me ATS if you want.

I hope someone keeps my long running HTT and Conder token threads going because I believe they are important records for historically significant series and having a collective of images is something worth doing, even if NGC won't make the effort to keep them at the top as they do some other, less viewed threads.

OUT, HT

I don't think the implication was that PCGS "ikes to upgrade, not downgrade, coins slabbed on this side of the street." I think it was that they have loosened up on their standards and that they will be more likely than previously, to grade certain coins higher than NGC. And that NGC would not want all of those coins included in their registry sets at the higher grades.

 

There is a difference between upgrading slabbed coins which are submitted for crossover, vs, grading the coins higher if they are removed from their holders and submitted for grading. The latter is far more likely to occur than the former.

That is how I read it as well, but Mr. Salzberg clearly stated that:

"After three decades as an NGC grading finalizer, I can say with confidence that our grading has remained accurate and consistent since the earliest days of the company. "

How accurate is that? I do believe that right now NGC is very strict, but has that always been the case? Have they been consistent and what does that mean?

Best, HT

The Langbords could have preemptively filed their own replevin or declaratory judgment action.

In layman's speak, what the heck is a replevin or declaratory judgement action? Lawyer talk

Best, HT

No they haven't. But the Langbord's have.

 

And I think it's fantastic that Mr. Roy Langbord is posting to the linked thread!

Fixed spelling, thanks.

See link to ATS where there is a link to the filed Writ. I wish them all of the good fortune in the world to right this wrong........

1933 dubble aegels

Best, HT

[

 

When you sign up for an account, the default setting is that every coin you win will automatically go into the "Post auction buy it now".

I think you mean 'Make Offer to Owner'(?), none of my wins at HA have ever been put into a Post Auction Buy it Now.

Best, HT

What a can of worms. Why are you only bringing up Heritage? What about the other major auction houses?

 

Btw, I have made up to 5 fold profits from Heritage coins before without even regrading. So yeah.

What do you mean by 5 fold profits, that seems abit vague can you be more specific?

Thanks, HT

I have the most amazing, most incredible solution to all of this HA nonsense....

 

GREATCOLLECTIONS. COM

 

I know I know, HA has.....um... er..... well.... what? What is it that they have that make it a better alternative to GC?

GC has incredible customer service, HA has none. GC has extremely quick payout time, HA has... well.... months of waiting to get paid. GC has fees that are reasonable, HA has fees that are so high it is borderline insulting, GC has friendly staff who are happy to make consigning an easy/ simple process. HA has a system where unless one of their agents thinks you have 6 figures worth of coins to sell they don't want to give you the time of day and even when u do have a 6-figure plus consignment it still isn't easy to get anywhere with their "consignment experts" or whatever they ate called. GC seems to treat all their customers the same, whether a 3, 5, 6, or 7-figure consignor. While HA justifies their much higher fees by boasting about their superior buyers pool, meaning they will tell you that even though sellers fees are higher, sellers will net more because there are so many more buyers, GC doesn't say anything and just sells your coins for more money and with less fees as their prices have been and continue to be as strong or stronger than HA for quite sometime now, regardless of the size of their buyers pool....

 

At this point, i honestly do not know why anybody would work with HA when GreatCollections is available as an option...

All that's just my opinion of course, which isn't very popular around here these days...

 

Maybe someone could help me out, and give me any reasons how HA can even find consignors of coins when GC is so much better/cheaper/faster at paying out/ friendlier/easier to work with/ etc.... ?

 

I can't seem to figure it out.

 

You forgot to add that GC ships the day after the auction has closed, making them super fast to get wins to buyers.

Best, HT

Keep in mind that if Heritage bids on a coin in their auction and wins it, they have to then sell for a profit or there is no point in doing so. Granted they don't pay BP on it, so they have an edge. If you look at their auction results, there are always post-auction buys. Those are coins that the consignors put too high a reserve on, even for Heritage to bid on. So it is not like they are bidding on every coin in their auctions, but only the ones they are interested in reselling and only at a profit. So HA is no different than any other dealer bidding in their auctions in this regard, should dealers not be allowed to bid as well, only open it to collectors? Would you then say it is fair?

 

Best, HT

 

Thanks HT. I didn't regard HA as a dealer but I thought just a medium for consignors to bring their offerings to market. I admittedly viewed HA as strictly an auction house that took no interest in actually buying what those consignors had to offer. My bad- wasn't aware of this practice but know now.

Pocket that was directed at 200K. Heritage is more than an auction house, they buy out right, do wholesale and sell on ebay. They are probably involved in all kinds of dealer trades as well, and then they have their collector clients they are looking out for. I have sold them coins at shows, and they pay pretty strong. I am sure some of the coins they buy outright they put up in auction, but not all of them.

Best, HT

Keep in mind that if Heritage bids on a coin in their auction and wins it, they have to then sell for a profit or there is no point in doing so. Granted they don't pay BP on it, so they have an edge. If you look at their auction results, there are always post-auction buys. Those are coins that the consignors put too high a reserve on, even for Heritage to bid on. So it is not like they are bidding on every coin in their auctions, but only the ones they are interested in reselling and only at a profit. So HA is no different than any other dealer bidding in their auctions in this regard, should dealers not be allowed to bid as well, only open it to collectors? Would you then say it is fair?

Best, HT

From John at CRO:

 

This is a total stunner

 

PhysicsFan3.14 blatantly called me a "counterfeiter" in this thread.

I have very good grounds to sue for defamation if I want to. And I might want to.

 

 

If he did call you that, he stated his opinion on an open forum among informed numismatists who are debating, and stating their opinions, on a topic of high interest. His opinion is likely not to change any minds or affect your buisness. Lawsuit? Really? Yikes.

 

Best, HT

Reason for edit: Corrected after the post by Robec below

 

The problem with physics and RWBs opinions is that both have published numismatic books and to some may appear to be "experts" in the coin community, their opinions differ greatly from Joe Schmoe running his mouth on a coin forum. RWB is pretty cautious, he uses vague name calling and innuendo but physics is much more to the point, he proclaimed Carr IS a counterfeiter, stated as fact not opinion. I don't believe Carr would ever win a defamation lawsuit but

 

Oh and I'm pretty sure it's safe to say "informed numismatists" debating their opinion is a bit of a stretch for some on here ? (Myself included)

I guess since my post is quoted above that this post must at least in part be directed to me - and honestly, I don't know what you are saying here - I don't understand at all why RWB and Physics publishing books make them only appear to be 'experts' and how this has any relation to Joe Schmoe running his mouth, that sentence makes no sense so could you clarify? You left a sentence half written that ends in 'but'. I also am not sure what the point of your last sentence is about 'informed numismatists' in relation to this thread.

Look forward to your clarifications and thanks for posting, all opinions are welcome here, as it should be as the boards were made to discuss topics just like this.

Best, HT

 

What if a member of this forum made a post wrongfully claiming that another member was a pedophile or something ? Would that be ok with you ?

 

Regardless, I have not had, and do not currently have, any plans to file any lawsuits. But my previous post was an indication that I will keep my options open.

 

>>> "Posting replies to the same fallacies over and over".

Perhaps your contentions are the fallacy.

I previously showed how my activities do not impugn the integrity of the Federal Government. It would be a burden of the prosecution to prove otherwise.

 

Observations on your comments above:

1. You have not 'previously showed how my activities do not impugn the integrity of the Federal Government', you have made a case that they do not, but no legal ruling has been made support your opinion.

2. The analogy of you striking US coin copies that may or may not be violating the HPA with that of someone accusing one to be a pedophile is ridiculous, out of context, and trying to deflect the debate away from the real issue. Yikes again.

3. Me thinks that if you did sue somebody for name calling, it would be as coinman said, you would open yourself up to countersuits that would bring forth an investigation into your practice of making fantasy coins that could be mistaken for legal tender US coinage. So maybe this is a good thing and would finally resolve the issue of this thread and many others?

Best, HT

 

PhysicsFan3.14 blatantly called me a "counterfeiter" in this thread.

I have very good grounds to sue for defamation if I want to. And I might want to.

 

If he did call you that, he stated his opinion on an open forum among informed numismatists who are debating, and stating their opinions, on a topic of high interest. His opinion is likely not to change any minds or affect your buisness. Lawsuit? Really? Yikes.

Best, HT

Reason for edit: Corrected after the post by Robec below

Let's see if we can make 300 posts!

Mr. Carr has made it clear that everything is OK. Only a few will be swindled and it's all their fault. I feel much better knowing that.

Been away and looking at what I missed. I goes ta Africa for 10 days and see what happens? After perusing all of the posts since I left I think this terse post by Larry says it all and is the real point. One can argue fantasy vs. counterfeit all day, but really, one can't argue about what Larry says above - folks are going to be swindled into buying what they think is a rare US coin. I personally like the fantasy offerings by Mr. Carr, but I have a problem with the swindle issue which is why I brought it up.

A side note, I saw lots and lots of diamonds - cut and raw, big and small, held fortunes in high pressure carbon crystals in my hands last Friday. But never managed to get to a coin shop to buy a Krugerrand to commemorate the visit even though there was one 2 blocks from my hotel. Looks like I will have to go back oh darn..........

Another side note (okay call me a troll I deserve it), looks like the boards are lit up in a McAfter sparring match. Carry on!

Best, HT

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

To quote from the article:

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

Best, HT

I was in the auction room with jom when it came up awaiting bust quarter bidding. The bidder on the 64D Roosie was a young adult who was doing his homework on pricing as the bidding ensued on this piece. He hesitated to make that last floor bid, and he had a friend that he was consulting with before making it. It was fairly clear that this was his final bid and he was estatic when it succeeded. He obviously spent alot time time to find the value of this coin - kudos to him, kudos to wondercoin, and kudos to the consignor as everyone walked away happy. The auctioneer congratulated this young man for his success when he walked out a few lots after the 64D. I thought that was pretty cool and very astute of the auctioneer to do that.

Interestingly, next morning when I was at lot pickup the young man was right behind me for his lot. He was stoked to win it. He told me this Roosie was in a class by itself and that he was a specialist in top pop modern coins and this was one was special. Pretty cool to meet him and it was clear he did his research for this coin.

Best, HT

WOW!

+10

Yarm - two beauties in a row!

Best, HT

Not to mention Conder tokens were only 1786 or 7 to 1801. They already have general token listing directly above the Condor listing that is 1600 to date. They need to either correct the date range or drop it completely lest you get slabs with 17th century tradesman tokens or 19th century bank tokens in holders labeled as Condors.

Yikes I wonder what their shareholders think if this..........

Is that your typo on the Glamorganshire or theirs? There is no D&H 14, should be D&H 4. Are they getting the attributions correct, including the edge variations?

Good catch, my typo, I will correct it......

Best, HT

To their credit they seem so far to be conservative. I would prefer to have all of my tokens in NGC holders but some are coming in PCGS.... I suppose I could do the crossover game. I have maybe 6-7 out of 150 or so in PCGS.

Best, HT