Why Are No Motto Proof Seated Dollars Hard to Find? Mintages and Survival Rates

[BillJones]

 

Last week I posted this picture of an 1862 Proof-64 Seated Dollar. The coin got mostly Bronx Cheers in large part because I mentioned the word “dipped” in the description. Let that be a lesson to those of you who might be aspiring copy writers for an auction house. The word “dipped” could very well lower the bids to melt value or perhaps a little lower. Oh well, you can’t please everyone, but it was the piece that I could afford; and it is a quite a bit better than the others I had seen in that grade or lower.

 

One of things I’ve noted about 19th century Proofs is that photographing them, especially when you have a slab with which to contend is virtually impossible. If you shoot them at an angle that avoids the slab hot spots, you get no luster. You can shoot the coins at an angle to get the Proof surface, you have a distorted picture with hot spots. You really can’t win! Here’s a “luster picture” of the same coin:

 

 

At any rate I’ve found the Liberty Seated No Motto dollars to be difficult to find. First, there are not a lot of them on the major bourse floors. Second, many of the pieces you see have been cleaned or cleaned and given a coat of artificial toning. Others have many hairlines. And I even ran into one piece that a planchet lamination. That one was in a PR-64 holder.

 

Why are these coins so scarce? Part of the answer is in the mintage. Dave Bowers in his type coin Red Book estimated that fewer than 5,500 Proof No Motto Seated dollars were minted. For the upper middle class collector, coins dated before 1859 are off the table because of their extreme cost.

 

That leaves the mintages from 1859 to 1865 for the type. Over that period the total mintage was 5,110 coins, but not all of those coins were sold. The mint melted an estimated 1,800 of them leaving about 3,300 survivors. From that group some pieces were spent while others got more than their share of numismatic abuse. The coin in my collection for many was an 1861 dated piece that had been cleaned to a dull white. I understood from the dealer from whom I purchased it that it had once been a wonderful toned coin, but that the previous owner had cleaned it white.

 

Given the number of pieces that have damage of one sort or another, that leaves perhaps 2,500 pieces that might fall in the grades from PR-60 to PR-69. Given that fairly small number relative to the number of collectors, it’s easy to why these coins are hard to find in today’s market.

 

[rrantique]

[font:Arial Black]That's a great looking proof Bill [/font]

[Prethen]

Okay....I admit it....I goofed on thinking that coin was a "dog". That picture makes it look pretty darn nice.

[physics-fan3.14]

I think that coin is nice, and different pictures always change opinions. I think the problem was that it was being compared to the other coin in the previous thread, which if I remember correctly was much nicer.

[BillJones]

I think that coin is nice, and different pictures always change opinions. I think the problem was that it was being compared to the other coin in the previous thread, which if I remember correctly was much nicer.

 

The 1869 Dollar isn't really all that nice. The toning is such that mirrors are mostly gone, and the toning is quite blotchy on the reverse especially. It is a very original PR-63, and PR-63 is all it is. The originality was the attraction for me. The many other PR-63 Seated Dollars that I had seen where totally dipped out to a dull white with not much reflectivity remaining. Despite that the prices were still over Gray Sheet “ask.”

 

The 1862 has retoned quite evenly and has a hint of originality although it isn’t. It also has only some light hairlines, especially on the reverse and no major marks. I’ve been really disappointed in the number of really big hits I’ve seen on some PR-64 19th century Proofs of late. One would expect some hairlines and perhaps a toning spot or two on a PR-64, but the coin should not have any really noticeable marks. I have seen these types marks on some Seated half dollars.

 

Overall one has to expect to select and compromise when your budget limits you to PR-64 and more pointedly PR-63 19th century coins. The point is that grade-flation should not be lowering the standards any further. Sadly it’s looking more and more than really decent Proof coins, but not great ones, are finding their way into PR-65 and even 66 holders. If this trend extends itself, the former “POP-1” coins might be “challenged” by inferior competitors.