I'm Depressed: I Purchased 3 Raw Coins From A Stacks Auction

[gmarguli]

I purchased 3 raw proof coins from a Stacks auction. Worse than what BigE did, two of mine didn't even have a picture!

 

I based my bid on several factors including Stack's reputation, their descriptions/grades, my risk tolerance, etc.

 

Got grades today from NGC and they all graded exactly like Stack's graded them.

 

Why am I depressed you might ask? Because since I came out OK on this 1 purchase, based on what some forum members say, my next 99 purchases like this will be losers where only the floor bidders will win the good lots. Or worse, since there were 3 coins, my next 297 purchases will be losers.

 

Sure wish I had spent 5% to have someone look at them first.

[MAULEMALL]

I purchased 3 raw proof coins from a Stacks auction. Worse than what BigE did, two of mine didn't even have a picture!

 

I based my bid on several factors including Stack's reputation, their descriptions/grades, my risk tolerance, etc.

 

Got grades today from NGC and they all graded exactly like Stack's graded them.

 

Why am I depressed you might ask? Because since I came out OK on this 1 purchase, based on what some forum members say, my next 99 purchases like this will be losers where only the floor bidders will win the good lots. Or worse, since there were 3 coins, my next 297 purchases will be losers.

 

Sure wish I had spent 5% to have someone look at them first.

I feel ya brother

[TomB]

You may buy your way out of numismatic purgatory by sending me 15%, which is 3x5%, of the total expenses involved with the coins and in this way your path to enlightenment on your next 297 purchases will be clear.

[Tradedollarnut]

Be sure to let us know how much you made after grading when you sell them.

[zrlevin]

You may buy your way out of numismatic purgatory by sending me 15%, which is 3x5%, of the total expenses involved with the coins and in this way your path to enlightenment on your next 297 purchases will be clear.

 

Check your math...

[MarkFeld]

I purchased 3 raw proof coins from a Stacks auction. Worse than what BigE did, two of mine didn't even have a picture!

 

I based my bid on several factors including Stack's reputation, their descriptions/grades, my risk tolerance, etc.

 

Got grades today from NGC and they all graded exactly like Stack's graded them.

 

Why am I depressed you might ask? Because since I came out OK on this 1 purchase, based on what some forum members say, my next 99 purchases like this will be losers where only the floor bidders will win the good lots. Or worse, since there were 3 coins, my next 297 purchases will be losers.

 

Sure wish I had spent 5% to have someone look at them first.

Greg, if you want to make the point that people don't always lose money buying coins out of auction on a sight unseen basis, that's fine. But it's a shame that you apparently aren't secure enough in your argument to make it without grossly exaggerating the other side as you did :

Because since I came out OK on this 1 purchase, based on what some forum members say, my next 99 purchases like this will be losers where only the floor bidders will win the good lots.

And, it's not only floor bidders who win lots on a sight seen basis, but also internet bidders who have viewed the lots.

 

You got lucky, as other buyers do upon occasion. In the long run, though, luck doesn't pan out buying coins that way and you're smart enough to know that.

[James_OldeTowne]

I purchased 3 raw proof coins from a Stacks auction. Worse than what BigE did, two of mine didn't even have a picture!

 

I based my bid on several factors including Stack's reputation, their descriptions/grades, my risk tolerance, etc.

 

Got grades today from NGC and they all graded exactly like Stack's graded them.

So I guess what you're saying is, it's OK to buy pictures of coins sight-unseen ?

 

Just kidding, I'm glad you did well in the Stack's auction, and I understand the excellent point you are making.

[WinstonWare]

I purchased 3 raw proof coins from a Stacks auction. Worse than what BigE did, two of mine didn't even have a picture!

 

I based my bid on several factors including Stack's reputation, their descriptions/grades, my risk tolerance, etc.

 

Got grades today from NGC and they all graded exactly like Stack's graded them.

 

Why am I depressed you might ask? Because since I came out OK on this 1 purchase, based on what some forum members say, my next 99 purchases like this will be losers where only the floor bidders will win the good lots. Or worse, since there were 3 coins, my next 297 purchases will be losers.

 

Sure wish I had spent 5% to have someone look at them first.

 

[MAULEMALL]

I purchased 3 raw proof coins from a Stacks auction. Worse than what BigE did, two of mine didn't even have a picture!

 

I based my bid on several factors including Stack's reputation, their descriptions/grades, my risk tolerance, etc.

 

Got grades today from NGC and they all graded exactly like Stack's graded them.

So I guess what you're saying is, it's OK to buy pictures of coins sight-unseen ?

 

Just kidding, I'm glad you did well in the Stack's auction, and I understand the excellent point you are making.

If I am not mistaken James,,

I seem to remember someone selling a picture of a coin on EBAY,,,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

If I am not mistaken James,,

I seem to remember someone selling a picture of a coin on EBAY,,,

 

Yup! Except, I sold my picture sight-seen .

[James_OldeTowne]

Because since I came out OK on this 1 purchase, based on what some forum members say, my next 99 purchases like this will be losers where only the floor bidders will win the good lots.

And, it's not only floor bidders who win lots on a sight seen basis, but also internet bidders who have viewed the lots.

 

You got lucky, as other buyers do upon occasion. In the long run, though, luck doesn't pan out buying coins that way and you're smart enough to know that.

Mark, I would have to dispute the idea that successfully buying coins from Stack's without seeing the coins is just blind luck. I think Stack's has been selling coins in this manner literally for many decades, and I suspect the vast majority of people who have purchased coins from them have done very well. I don't think they "occasionally" do well - I suspect they usually do well, and that's a result of Stack's outstanding reputation. This appeared to me to be Greg's point (unless I missed something).

[Tradedollarnut]

I think Stack's has been selling coins in this manner literally for many decades, and I suspect the vast majority of people who have purchased coins from them have done very well. I don't think they "occasionally" do well - I suspect they usually do well, and that's a result of Stack's outstanding reputation. This appeared to me to be Greg's point (unless I missed something).

 

I purchased a circulated trade dollar from them and years later found out it had been holed and repaired with no mention of such in the description.

 

Greg's point is somewhat misleading in that there are plenty of coins with very low value and very little spread where there is no incentive to inflate the price through puffery. If you stick to these coins, you will indeed get your grades but you will make very low profits. In other words, it's not worth the time of the floor bidders to spend hours looking at the coins and then outbid the internet bidder because the cumulative cost of time and increment erode away any profit in the long run.

 

So do be sure to let us know how much profit you made after all costs when you finally do sell the coins.

[MBA101]

I just have to do this:

 

[James_OldeTowne]

 

Scottish Pict:

 

 

Oh, did you say PIC ?

 

[MBA101]

 

Scottish Pict:

 

 

Oh, did you say PIC ?

 

 

Hey! Wait a second! That's me!

[gmarguli]

You got lucky, as other buyers do upon occasion. In the long run, though, luck doesn't pan out buying coins that way and you're smart enough to know that.

 

Yes Mark, I know I got lucky on this occasion, which is why I was so depressed. I'm looking at the long run and realizing that I'm going to have a ton of losers in my future to balance out these few winners.

 

I was stupid to take Stack's reputation into consideration when bidding. They've only been in business 72 years. Hell, the coins I purchased were older than that!

 

I was stupid to figure into my bid amount the risk associated with purchasing a coin sight unseen with no return privilege.

 

I was stupid to take into account in my bids the amount of money I was comfortable risking.

 

I was just plain stupid. I should have not done all the above and paid someone 5% to look at the coins for me. Or better yet, gone to New York and looked at the coins myself.

 

Bidding sight unseen is wrong. It does not matter if you know and understand the risks and adjust your bids accordingly. It is still wrong. Really wrong! Like kicking a puppy wrong!!

[WinstonWare]

Like kicking a puppy wrong!!

 

.... ....nope it's just a joke it's okay

[JamminJ]

Sucker.

 

How will you know if its any good unless experts bless it?

[MarkFeld]

You got lucky, as other buyers do upon occasion. In the long run, though, luck doesn't pan out buying coins that way and you're smart enough to know that.

 

Yes Mark, I know I got lucky on this occasion, which is why I was so depressed. I'm looking at the long run and realizing that I'm going to have a ton of losers in my future to balance out these few winners.

 

I was stupid to take Stack's reputation into consideration when bidding. They've only been in business 72 years. Hell, the coins I purchased were older than that!

 

I was stupid to figure into my bid amount the risk associated with purchasing a coin sight unseen with no return privilege.

 

I was stupid to take into account in my bids the amount of money I was comfortable risking.

 

I was just plain stupid. I should have not done all the above and paid someone 5% to look at the coins for me. Or better yet, gone to New York and looked at the coins myself.

 

Bidding sight unseen is wrong. It does not matter if you know and understand the risks and adjust your bids accordingly. It is still wrong. Really wrong! Like kicking a puppy wrong!!

Greg, if you want to repeatedly refer to yourself as "stupid", that's your prerogative. But I didn't say you were stupid - in fact, I said you were "smart "enough to know that "In the long run, though, luck doesn't pan out buying coins that way".

 

You merely gambled and you got lucky and won. If you truly believe otherwise, why don't you spend six figures on a large group of coins that way in the next Stack's (or other major public) sale and report back to us about how well you do. Better yet, do it a number of times......

 

Mark, I would have to dispute the idea that successfully buying coins from Stack's without seeing the coins is just blind luck. I think Stack's has been selling coins in this manner literally for many decades, and I suspect the vast majority of people who have purchased coins from them have done very well. I don't think they "occasionally" do well - I suspect they usually do well, and that's a result of Stack's outstanding reputation. This appeared to me to be Greg's point (unless I missed something).

James, we will have to agree to disagree. I admittedly don't have any statistics with which to make my case, but strongly suspect that a large % of the $ spent in Stack's sales is not on a sight-unseen basis. If I'm wrong about that, however, I'd bet that on average, the buyers do very poorly.

[gmarguli]

Greg, if you want to repeatedly refer to yourself as "stupid", that's your prerogative. But I didn't say you were stupid - in fact, I said you were "smart "enough to know that "In the long run, though, luck doesn't pan out buying coins that way".

 

No Mark, I was stupid. Bidding sight unseen is wrong. Really wrong! Like tipping over a person in a wheelchair wrong!!

 

And I agree, this was pure luck. At no point whatsoever should a person ever take other factors into consideration when buying a coin. Ignore the history of the company - especially a fly-by-night operation like Stacks. When they make it to 100 years in business, then we'll talk! Ignore the (possibly) lesser price you'll pay for the coin to help offset your risk. Ignore all the factors you can take into account when figuring your bid. There are only two times when you should buy a coin: 1) When there is a return privilege. 2) When you've seen the coin in hand or had another pair of eyes look at the coin for you (bonus points if they get paid 5% to do it). I see the light!!

 

 

You merely gambled and you got lucky and won. If you truly believe otherwise, why don't you spend six figures on a large group of coins that way in the next Stack's (or other major public) sale and report back to us about how well you do. Better yet, do it a number of times......

 

I agree, pure luck! Nothing more than a gamble. Yeah, sure, before I placed my bids I took into account the monetary downside if the coins were pigs, the reputation of Stacks, my prior experience with them, the lack of return policy, etc, and adjusted my bids accordingly, but that was meaningless. Pure fluff! I rolled the dice and won!

 

As for spending "six figures" on a bunch of coins from Stacks in the same manner, I would not do that because I do not have the risk tolerance that would go with that kind of purchase. One of my main points that seems to be missed by you is that people have different risk tolerances. While you might consider a BigE $6,000 purchase with a $1,500 downside completely foolish, others might view it as an acceptable risk. I would be very willing to buy maybe $25,000 in coins from them knowing that I might lose $5,000. That's something that I'm comfortable with potentially losing. However, $100,000 in coins for a potential $20,000(?) loss is too much for me to risk in this manner. I'm not rich like you and I'm still saving up for my Ferrari.

 

 

James, we will have to agree to disagree. I admittedly don't have any statistics with which to make my case, but strongly suspect that a large % of the $ spent in Stack's sales is not on a sight-unseen basis. If I'm wrong about that, however, I'd bet that on average, the buyers do very poorly.

 

I suspect that a large percentage of all auction sales go to floor bidders regardless of the company or return privilege.

 

I also suspect that on average, the mail buyers do about average. The idea that the dealers at the auction will buy up all the nice coins and leave the garbage for the mail bidders is over played. I've purchased many coins at auctions that have upgraded or graded well where I did not have to pay stupid money for them. Where were all the dealers at the auction when these coins sold? Perhaps the $1,000 profits are too small for them? They're focusing on the big scores? Or perhaps 98% of the self appointed great graders out there are average at best? Perhaps nice coins do go unnoticed - like a pattern I purchased from a major auction and turned around and reconsigned it to the same auction house for their next sale where it brought MANY MULTIPLES of what I paid? Or perhaps it really is luck and I'm special?

[MunkyMan95]

What, no pictutres?

[gmarguli]

What, no pictutres?

 

I don't have them back from NGC yet. Probably early next week.

[James_OldeTowne]

Mark, I would have to dispute the idea that successfully buying coins from Stack's without seeing the coins is just blind luck. I think Stack's has been selling coins in this manner literally for many decades, and I suspect the vast majority of people who have purchased coins from them have done very well. I don't think they "occasionally" do well - I suspect they usually do well, and that's a result of Stack's outstanding reputation. This appeared to me to be Greg's point (unless I missed something).

James, we will have to agree to disagree. I admittedly don't have any statistics with which to make my case, but strongly suspect that a large % of the $ spent in Stack's sales is not on a sight-unseen basis. If I'm wrong about that, however, I'd bet that on average, the buyers do very poorly.

OK, Mark, I can accept that. It just seems to me that people were buying coins from Stack's long before the advent of the internet, and did very well. I know of quite a few collectors who bought coins from them in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, very often without images to view, and based almost entirely on a combination of their text descriptions in printed catalogs, plus Stack's distinguished reputation.

 

If we were talking about some sinister internet-only auctioneer, or a greasy, fast-talking grubby fly-by-night operation, that would be one thing, but I don't think Stack's built their reputation by sticking bidders with lousy coins!

[Tradedollarnut]

If we were talking about some sinister internet-only auctioneer, or a greasy, fast-talking grubby fly-by-night operation, that would be one thing, but I don't think Stack's built their reputation by sticking bidders with lousy coins!

 

How do you explain my holed and plugged trade dollar?

[IGWT]

How do you explain my holed and plugged trade dollar?

 

I've got to believe that Stack's would allow a return for an undisclosed problem like that.

 

I'm in favor of viewing a coin in person before making an irrevocable purchase; but, I also think that there are exceptions to every rule. I bought a raw coin out of a Stack's auction sight-unseen when I couldn't find anyone to view it for me. It was an uncatalogued, previously undiscovered die variety in my area of collecting, and it was relatively inexpensive. I didn't even care much whether or not the coin would holder. In short, for me, the potential benefit greatly outweighed the risks. Granted, a situation like this one doesn't arise very often, but I'm prepared to buy sight-unseen when it does. I don't think that Greg is saying anything different. The danger in buying sight-unseen is in failing to appreciate the risk.

 

BTW, I bought the coin as a 63, and it graded at PCGS as a 64 (PCGS overgraded it by my standards). But that doesn't mean that my next purchase will also be sight-unseen. I'll continue to view coins myself or ask a pro or or ask a trusted friend for assistance whenever possible.

[gmarguli]

If we were talking about some sinister internet-only auctioneer, or a greasy, fast-talking grubby fly-by-night operation, that would be one thing, but I don't think Stack's built their reputation by sticking bidders with lousy coins!

 

How do you explain my holed and plugged trade dollar?

 

You mean this one you referred to: I purchased a circulated trade dollar from them and years later found out it had been holed and repaired with no mention of such in the description.

 

If Tradedollarnut didn't notice the plugging for years, then isn't it entirely possible that Stacks missed it also during their 5 second look at it?

 

There is a mint state Trade dollar in a PCGS slab with a chopmark. If the experts at PCGS missed it, isn't it possible others did also?

 

There is an 1803 1c tooled into an 1804 in a PCGS slab. If the experts at PCGS missed it, isn't it possible others did also?

 

To slam Stacks for your coin does not allow for the possibility that they made an error like all people do. Was it intentional? We'll never know. Perhaps they missed it? Perhaps they didn't and the catalog description was unintentionally wrong? Perhaps they tried to screw over the buyer?

[MarkFeld]

The idea that the dealers at the auction will buy up all the nice coins and leave the garbage for the mail bidders is over played

You yourself, are over-playing the dealer aspect. It's not only dealers, but also collectors who have seen the coins in hand and are successful on many occasions.

[MikeKing]

You may buy your way out of numismatic purgatory by sending me 15%, which is 3x5%, of the total expenses involved with the coins and in this way your path to enlightenment on your next 297 purchases will be clear.

 

I love it...numismatic purgatory....Tom....are you looking for disciples?

[Tradedollarnut]

If we were talking about some sinister internet-only auctioneer, or a greasy, fast-talking grubby fly-by-night operation, that would be one thing, but I don't think Stack's built their reputation by sticking bidders with lousy coins!

 

How do you explain my holed and plugged trade dollar?

 

You mean this one you referred to: I purchased a circulated trade dollar from them and years later found out it had been holed and repaired with no mention of such in the description.

 

If Tradedollarnut didn't notice the plugging for years, then isn't it entirely possible that Stacks missed it also during their 5 second look at it?

 

There is a mint state Trade dollar in a PCGS slab with a chopmark. If the experts at PCGS missed it, isn't it possible others did also?

 

There is an 1803 1c tooled into an 1804 in a PCGS slab. If the experts at PCGS missed it, isn't it possible others did also?

 

To slam Stacks for your coin does not allow for the possibility that they made an error like all people do. Was it intentional? We'll never know. Perhaps they missed it? Perhaps they didn't and the catalog description was unintentionally wrong? Perhaps they tried to screw over the buyer?

 

I received the coin and threw it in the safe without taking it out of the flip and looking at it. Years later, when I removed it from the flip, the repair was immediately apparent. No professional numismatist would ever have missed the fact the coin was repaired.

 

Check around some if you think it's an isolated incident.

[gmarguli]

The idea that the dealers at the auction will buy up all the nice coins and leave the garbage for the mail bidders is over played

You yourself, are over-playing the dealer aspect. It's not only dealers, but also collectors who have seen the coins in hand and are successful on many occasions.

 

Poor wording on my part, but same assumed result. Garbage goes to the sight unseen mail bidders and good stuff gets sold on the floor / sight seen bidders.