I'm Depressed: I Purchased 3 Raw Coins From A Stacks Auction

[Tradedollarnut]

ps - how bout that AT gobrecht in the last sale???

[gmarguli]

ps - how bout that AT gobrecht in the last sale???

 

Perhaps it is MA and will get slabbed like the BigE coin or two million other MA/AT coins in TPG slabs?

[MarkFeld]

ps - how bout that AT gobrecht in the last sale???

 

Perhaps it is MA and will get slabbed like the BigE coin or two million other MA/AT coins in TPG slabs?

I recently saw the Gobrecht Dollar in hand it it looked blatantly AT to me. If you're saying it might slab as market acceptable one day and that a sight-unseen buyer of such a coin might do fine with it, then you could make the same point about most any coin.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that the odds are greatly against a sight-unseen buyer of an auction coin, regardless of which auction company is selling it. Also, a person's tolerance for risk (that you have made reference to in the sight-unseen debate) doesn't change those odds, either - it merely dictates how much risk the bidder is willing to take in the face of those odds which are stacked against him. Odds don't always pan out based upon a small sample size and/or in the short term. They will, however assert themselves with respect to large sample sizes and/or in the long run. And, contrary to what you have said (facetiously or otherwise) because you are not stupid, you know all of that.

[Tradedollarnut]

ps - how bout that AT gobrecht in the last sale???

 

Perhaps it is MA and will get slabbed like the BigE coin or two million other MA/AT coins in TPG slabs?

 

No comment on the fact that Stacks knew it was AT yet still sold it? How does that jive with your putting them up on a pedestal of numismatic virtue?

[MarkFeld]

ps - how bout that AT gobrecht in the last sale???

 

Perhaps it is MA and will get slabbed like the BigE coin or two million other MA/AT coins in TPG slabs?

 

No comment on the fact that Stacks knew it was AT yet still sold it? How does that jive with your putting them up on a pedestal of numistmatic virtue?

Any sight-unseen bidder with a brain will know precisely WHICH coins to take an auction company's reputation and description at face value for.

[IGWT]

I'm disappointed that no one called me foolish for my sight-unseen purchase.

[Tradedollarnut]

Any sight-unseen bidder with a brain will know precisely WHICH coins to take an auction company's reputation and description at face value for.

 

[gmarguli]

I recently saw the Gobrecht Dollar in hand it it looked blatantly AT to me. If you're saying it might slab as market acceptable one day and that a sight-unseen buyer of such a coin might do fine with it, then you could make the same point about most any coin.

 

It's a Gobrecht, so allowances are made for it when it comes into a TPG. Given the rarity of the coin, it may be judged MA. It would not surprise me.

[gmarguli]

ps - how bout that AT gobrecht in the last sale???

 

Perhaps it is MA and will get slabbed like the BigE coin or two million other MA/AT coins in TPG slabs?

 

No comment on the fact that Stacks knew it was AT yet still sold it? How does that jive with your putting them up on a pedestal of numismatic virtue?

 

I do not hold Stack's on a pedestal. I have no real love for them and do very little business with them. I have had some good transactions with them, but nothing stellar. I'm just saying reputation should be taken into account.

 

As for the AT Gobrecht, how do we know they knew it was AT? Perhaps they thought it was MA like the BigE coin you felt was also AT, but a TPG said MA?

[Tradedollarnut]

As for the AT Gobrecht, how do we know they knew it was AT? Perhaps they thought it was MA like the BigE coin you felt was also AT, but a TPG said MA?

 

Because I heard there was a discussion in their office about how recently that toning must have been added.

 

The coin has been plate matched to a white one sold a year ago.

[MarkFeld]

As for the AT Gobrecht, how do we know they knew it was AT? Perhaps they thought it was MA like the BigE coin you felt was also AT, but a TPG said MA?

 

Because I heard there was a discussion in their office about how recently that toning must have been added.

 

The coin has been plate matched to a white one sold a year ago.

That proves nothing - the newly added toning could have occurred naturally, even though it doesn't look it.

[James_OldeTowne]

If we were talking about some sinister internet-only auctioneer, or a greasy, fast-talking grubby fly-by-night operation, that would be one thing, but I don't think Stack's built their reputation by sticking bidders with lousy coins!

 

How do you explain my holed and plugged trade dollar?

I don't think Stack's "stuck" you with it. I think (from what you yourself posted previously) that you failed in your responsibility to review the coins as soon as you got them, and make sure they met the standards of their descriptions. Besides, I don't know what your one "bad" experience out of probably 100,000s of "good" experiences proves ...., other than mistakes can, do, and should be expected to happen (as can happen with sight-seen purchases).

 

I wasn't going to say this, but upon reviewing the others posts to this thread, I just have to, because it's been bothering me.

 

Why in the world, as a collector, would you buy a rare and historic coin, not even bother to look at it, and then just throw it away into hiding for years? What kind of coin collector does that? This just doesn't strike me as rational behavior. It makes no sense! Can you explain this? What makes it particularly astounding is that it was a Trade dollar, and that's what you specialize in!!

 

Please don't take it as any kind of insult. I just don't understand at all. Seems like coins, especially historic ones, should be bought to be enjoyed, not to be stuffed into a dark safe for years on end.

[Tradedollarnut]

I bought it because I could tell by the picture it was a double die reverse. When I received it, I looked at the reverse, confirmed it was indeed a double die and put it away.

 

You are correct. I failed in my responsibility to make sure that Stacks didn't stick me with a bad coin that I purchased sight unseen. Apparently, I'm not as good as Greg is at choosing the right coins without looking at them.

[WinstonWare]

I'm disappointed that no one called me foolish for my sight-unseen purchase.

 

Fool What did you buy?

[MarkFeld]

I'm disappointed that no one called me foolish for my sight-unseen purchase.

I'm not falling for that trap.

[jom]

Let me see if I got this correct, Greg. You are willing to risk a 20% loss ($5000) on a $25,000 purchase but are unwilling to pay 5% ($1250) a dealer to look at it. Is that about right?

 

I would agree the absolute number do make a difference. If you are made of millions the above scenario is fine without the dealer. Buy many of us wouldn't be comfortable with risking the $5000 but paying the $1250 might be OK.

 

I've gone back and forth on this issue and I've come to the conclusion that it's just an individual thing...ie I seem to agree with Greg. If BigE is a multi-millionaire I suppose that it wasn't a big risk to him. So why not take a shot? I, on the other hand, would do no such thing. For me, not only is the risk of buying a raw coin to high, I really don't know if I'd like the coin to begin with. Pictures often don't show all of the things I need to see to tell whether I'd like it....therefore I have a real hard time buying coins I haven't seen in hand. Plus, I'm buying from a collectors standpoint. I don't buy to resell...which is an entirely different process.

 

Again, that's just me...it's an individual thing.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

Let me see if I got this correct, Greg. You are willing to risk a 20% loss ($5000) on a $25,000 purchase but are unwilling to pay 5% ($1250) a dealer to look at it. Is that about right?

 

I would agree the absolute number do make a difference. If you are made of millions the above scenario is fine without the dealer. Buy many of us wouldn't be comfortable with risking the $5000 but paying the $1250 might be OK.

 

I've gone back and forth on this issue and I've come to the conclusion that it's just an individual thing...ie I seem to agree with Greg. If BigE is a multi-millionaire I suppose that it wasn't a big risk to him. So why not take a shot? I, on the other hand, would do no such thing. For me, not only is the risk of buying a raw coin to high, I really don't know if I'd like the coin to begin with. Pictures often don't show all of the things I need to see to tell whether I'd like it....therefore I have a real hard time buying coins I haven't seen in hand. Plus, I'm buying from a collectors standpoint. I don't buy to resell...which is an entirely different process.

 

Again, that's just me...it's an individual thing.

 

jom

John, don't forget that 1) there is usually no charge at all if the bidder doesn't end up winning the coin and 2) on a $25,000 item that is won, the commission might be less than 5%. And, contrary to what some have intimated, most dealers do give thumbs down to coins with problems and/or which aren't suitable for the client, knowing it means they won't be making any commission as a result.

[gmarguli]

Let me see if I got this correct, Greg. You are willing to risk a 20% loss ($5000) on a $25,000 purchase but are unwilling to pay 5% ($1250) a dealer to look at it. Is that about right?

 

Yes. Keep in mind that you won't always be losing that $5,000. Many purchases will turn out well for you. However, you will always be paying that $1,250. In this scenario, if 1 of 4 purchases is a loser, you break even. Now take into account all the outside factors and see if you think you'll end up a loser 25% of the time.

 

Also, I wasn't necessarily referring to one coin at $25,000. It may be 25 coins at $1,000 each, so it doesn't have to be a complete win/lose situation.

 

And I don't have anything against a person paying 5% to have another look at a coin for them. However, the idea that you have to always do that is false in my opinion. You can do well without this if you know and understand the risks and possible outcomes.

[GAB]

Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes NOT !

Here is the only coin I have tried to get slabbed (PCGS) that I bought from Stacks.

Catalogued as a Choice BU :

 

Grade - BB altered surfaces.

 

Oh well - it is still pretty nice for MY purposes.

[MAULEMALL]

Hey GAB,, Can you or have you ascertained to any degree, If in fact it was tooled?

 

I would think that as nice as that coin appears that it wasn't cheap..

[MarkFeld]

Hey GAB,, Can you or have you ascertained to any degree, If in fact it was tooled?

 

I would think that as nice as that coin appears that it wasn't cheap..

My guess is that that something was done to and/or applied to the surfaces, rather than that the coin was "tooled".

[MAULEMALL]

Hey GAB,, Can you or have you ascertained to any degree, If in fact it was tooled?

 

I would think that as nice as that coin appears that it wasn't cheap..

My guess is that that something was done to and/or applied to the surfaces, rather than that the coin was "tooled".

Well I guess this begs the question, What do TPG's put into the catogory of tooled when They BB a coin?

[gmarguli]

The coin appears too shiny under the toning - at least based on the picture.

 

Tooled will usually be noted as Damage by PCGS. NGC will write Tooled on the bodybag.

[James_OldeTowne]

There is also a misconception that every case of "altered surfaces" implies something sinister was done. Although this is often, and perhaps usually the case, it isn't always. Sometimes, coins just have something adhering to the surfaces that simply shouldn't be there.

 

Be that as it may, if it's something like putty, or lacquer, or whatever, it may be an excellent candidate for NCS.

[MAULEMALL]

There is also a misconception that every case of "altered surfaces" implies something sinister was done. Although this is often, and perhaps usually the case, it isn't always. Sometimes, coins just have something adhering to the surfaces that simply shouldn't be there.

 

Be that as it may, if it's something like putty, or lacquer, or whatever, it may be an excellent candidate for NCS.

What do you think of the coin James?

[GAB]

Definitely not tooled.

I have no idea what the issue is, but it is a very nice example of an O-114, with tons

of detail. I can't complain too much, as I paid much less than a "certified" MS coin would have cost (probably the first clue!!)

[Tradedollarnut]

Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes NOT !

Here is the only coin I have tried to get slabbed (PCGS) that I bought from Stacks.

Catalogued as a Choice BU :

 

Grade - BB altered surfaces.

 

Oh well - it is still pretty nice for MY purposes.

 

You need to get Greg to learn ya on how to buy coins sight unseen....

[gmarguli]

Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes NOT !

Here is the only coin I have tried to get slabbed (PCGS) that I bought from Stacks.

Catalogued as a Choice BU :

 

Grade - BB altered surfaces.

 

Oh well - it is still pretty nice for MY purposes.

 

You need to get Greg to learn ya on how to buy coins sight unseen....

 

Rule #1: Avoid dealers that call others wannabes and sell problem coins like this while calling their buyers *spoon* and then screaming that the coin is wonderful and original (ignoring the fact a carbon spot was scratched off it and the coin had previously been cleaned).

 

 

I can continue with many more rules if you'd like?

[MarkFeld]

Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes NOT !

Here is the only coin I have tried to get slabbed (PCGS) that I bought from Stacks.

Catalogued as a Choice BU :

 

Grade - BB altered surfaces.

 

Oh well - it is still pretty nice for MY purposes.

 

You need to get Greg to learn ya on how to buy coins sight unseen....

 

Rule #1: Avoid dealers that call others wannabes and sell problem coins like this while calling their buyers *spoon* and then screaming that the coin is wonderful and original (ignoring the fact a carbon spot was scratched off it and the coin had previously been cleaned).

 

 

I can continue with many more rules if you'd like?

While that was a decent slam, it did not really pertain to the previous posts about sight-unseen purchases. Legend has a return privilege, while auction houses generally do not. That can (though it doesn't always) make a big difference.

[MAULEMALL]

While I agree for the most part,I think that Laura's behavior and attitude after the fact was somewhat insulting and condescending to the actual thread.

 

As I remember she Made Her remarks ATS and never really addressed the issues pertaining to the coin.

 

Greg ,,Has she ever spoaken to you about the coin?