Is PCGS intentionally trying to drive themselves into the ground?

[truthteller]

A post from the PCGS boards which I found most disconcerting.

 

 

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=217249

 

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

I read the thread and the actions by PCGS thus far have not been good. That's too bad.

[gmarguli]

There is a thread floating around here where Mark Feld (coinguy1) got screwed by PCGS who refused to stand behind their guarantee on a $5400 1945 10¢ MS65FB.

 

I loved the post by Foul Ball Hall telling the truth that is on a regrade the coin grades lower the computer will automatically adjust it back to the original grade.

[MAULEMALL]

Thats just Effing Sad.

 

 

 

It's a shame you have to get so far into someones to get anything done over there.

 

Laura had to go balistic.It's the only way that I have seen that anything happens.

[Leothelion]

There are just too many folks out there with little common sense who have banked

too much of their money into PCG$ junk, are they going to buck that system? Not if it means they'll lose their money by doing so. And PCG$ knows it! This is why they can get away with this farce. Because they know how much they can get away with it without hurting themselves in the long run.

And as for their registry, I have great respect for the true collectors who have MADE their own coins for their collections as coin collectors aside from the true rarity coin collectors. But what's all this garbage about having the bucks to buy whole collections, combine the pop top coins to come up with a slightly better collection and then calling yourself the best coin collector of a series? Isn't it just a matter of time before some other clown comes along with more bucks and repeats the same thing to claim that he's now the best coin collector in a series. This does nothing for me! I would like to ask these people, how many of those coins did they make verses the number that were money baited and store bought? In my opinion, that is not a coin collector!

 

Leo

 

Oh! I wanted to add; I think I'll go buy a lottery ticket!

[truthteller]

Andy Lustig made a interesting comment on the PCGS forum, suggesting that Jadecoin get a refund from the seller. CAN YOU IMAGE THE LIABILITY this would cause coin dealers and the industry!!!!!!!!!! Say Jadecoin actually sues the seller, then the seller sues the submitter, then the submitter sues PCGS. HOLY MOLEY!!! That means everyone who owned the coin at one time places themselves in a liable situation. What if many coins out there are found to be falsely pedigreed? An attorney's dream scenario. If DH doesn't resolve problems like this quietly, PCGS will not be in business very much longer.

 

TRUTH

[dragon]

What I think is rather sad is how nearly everyone including well known national dealers that are part of PCGS's own authorized dealer network feel that they must announce their personal issues with PCGS in a public forum in order to garner public support, and either embarrass or browbeat management at PCGS to take action.

 

Complaining about misgraded coins is one thing, as the services routinely make mistakes from time to time, but personal business issues should be handled privately IMO, not announced to the entire free world.

 

After all, you don't see management at PCGS or NGC starting public threads about dealers who are late in paying their invoices or bouncing checks, and you certainly won't see dealers publicly announcing every time they get a gift grade, or a coin bumped up by two grades and flipped for a big instant profit or sold to a collector for multiples of what they just paid.

 

dragon

[TonerGuy]

An attorney's dream scenario

 

Well, not really. We would much rather have 1 liable defendant with nice deep pockets then try to sue a bunch of people who might or might not be liable. PCGS would cross complain if they were sued by Jadecoin and try bring in other potential defendants in order to say its not our fault, it's this other guy's problem and he should indemnify us --- but I doubt that would happen in all reality. PCGS IS the market leader in third party grading, aren't they?

 

With problems like this, the buck stops with Mr. Hall and CU/PCGS.

 

IMHO ---

 

Michael

[ArtR]

dragon

I agree with your post if it was some one other than PCGS. It seems that the only way lately to get a response or correction out of them is to go public, and embarrass them enough to make amends.

[Tradedollarnut]

But what's all this garbage about having the bucks to buy whole collections, combine the pop top coins to come up with a slightly better collection and then calling yourself the best coin collector of a series?

 

Oh - you mean like Louis Eliasberg when he bought the Clapp collection en mass, which was the core of his collecting efforts? Or the Norwebs at the Farouk sale? I wonder how many coins Garrett "made" over his lifetime?

 

Really - what is the difference how they were acquired? If the collector has knowledge about the series [and isn't just an investor], does it really matter if that collector found the coins raw and got them graded or was the biggest buyer at a name sale or even bought an entire collection privately? [i've done all three, by the way, and it doesn't seem to matter much to me - why should it matter to you?]

[291fifth]

Buy the coin, not the holder.

Buy the coin, not the pedigree.

[dragon]

I agree with TDN, it makes no difference how a coin(s) were aquired. One of the greatest collectors of all time, Virgil Brand, often aquired entire collections intact just to obtain one or two needed pieces, and was often times the largest single bidder at many auctions, sometimes buying up to 70% of all the lots in a sale!

 

dragon

[jom]

I'd agree with TDN except I wouldn't call the collector "the best" but rather the one who "spent the most". Fact of the matter is just because some coin is a "top pop" or whatever does NOT mean it's the nicest coin of the date/mintmark. You all should know by now that grade does not necessarily equal quality.

 

As to PCGS, all I've ever heard about them for years is their "elitist" attitude. And their unwillingness to cooperate. What does a grade guarentee mean exactly? Sorry, folks, whether you know it or not you are still essentially buying raw coins. Plastic or no.

 

jom

[Tradedollarnut]

Interesting. Are we rating collectors now? I thought we were rating the collection itself. It's fine to say that a collector has done the most with the least, but when rating collections it usually is about the overall quality of the coins and it's simply a fact - supply and demand - that the top quality coins cost the most. Who are we trying to fool when we say it's not about money?

 

Certainly there are some instances where a top pop coin isn't any nicer than an underpop [i just passed on an MS65 1867 dollar because I felt my MS64 was just as nice], but it's fairly rare when an underpop coin is universally acclaimed as more desirable than the top pop. I hear it all the time when people turn their nose up at the higher coin, but fact of the matter is that it's usually a money factor - yes, the coin is nicer, but not nice enough to justify the price. Yes, his collection is nicer, but he spent his money foolishly because it cost him so much to buy those half grade nicer coins. It seems to me that those are personal judgements and that, overall, time and time again, the collector with the higher grades will have the higher quality set. And it just doesn't matter in judging the set how the collector acquired the coins - whether he "made" them all [an impossible thing to do in any classic series], bought them one by one at auction over 50 years or bought several complete collections and kept the best. The fact of the matter is that the latter route is going to yield the best quality coins over time.

 

I guess if it pleases you, then go ahead and continue on with your looking down on how other collectors acquire their coins. To each their own...

[jom]

The vast majority of these registry sets are not put together "over time". It is an "instant gratification" world we seem to live it and coin collectors are no different. I give a damn where people get their coins or what auction they bought them in. But just because some grading company grades something as "pop top" doesn't not mean it is the highest quality coin. I've seen numerous registry sets available at auction and I've been less than impressed. The recent collection of early Walkers that Heritage sold was laughable compared to the Pryor set sold in 96. This is just one example.

 

The best route to put together a set of high quality coins is to do it in a manner that "cherry-picks" the best coins regardless of grade or who they bought it from. And it normally takes long-period of time to aquire such coins NOT put together in a few weeks buying off Ebay.

 

jom

[Leothelion]

And as for their registry, I have great respect for the true collectors who have MADE their own coins for their collections as coin collectors aside from the true rarity coin collectors.

 

Perhaps you have missed my point!

Coins that hold true rarity, possibly with sheldon numbers and the like, coins from famous collections, how else can they be obtained besides through sales when they come to the market?

 

It should matter to everyone who diligently works hard at assembling their own collections through long hours of searching rolls, mint sets, coin shows, auction houses etc, including the making their own coins! To buy entire modern dated collections to accumulate pop top coins to create a false sense of pride with money is for sheer investment purposes only. These accumulations need to be removed from the registries, accumulations that only make you think; wow, that guy must have alot a money! And there are collectors who do not like to get badgered for their best coins when they are not selling!

Now give me that collector who made his own pop one MS67 coin or the collector who had to wait many years for that one coin to come to the market. That's where the respect and competition is with most collectors alike who are assembling coin collections of rarity and those collectors who are collecting coins made in the last 60-70 years (there, I said it again) and again, true rarity collectors of the more classic coins do not fit into this catagory. That competition of locateing my own MS67 coin to match and compete with that other collector, to keep the game reasonable, interesting and fair is what it's all about. That other collector who has become my comrade and friend.

Think of it this way! What if someone bought to own three of the very best major league baseball teams and then assembled one super team that ended up beating the pants off every other team in every game, where would the enjoyment be in that?

 

Leo

 

[BushMan]

but personal business issues should be handled privately IMO, not announced to the entire free world.

I believe I will take the collector/dealer's point of view on this one. The President of PCGS, HisRoyalHighness, had the opportunity to not only correct the holder, but provide good, solid customer service by providing a letter and financial reimbursement for PCGS' error. All in a private manner! He CHOSE not to do so. David Hall is no numismatic rookie. He understands that removing a pedigree substantially impacts the value of the coin. Rather than act in a proactive manner, he just returns the coin hoping to weasel out of making things right for the collector. I find his handling of this matter to be completely pathetic!!

 

[BushMan]

A serious matter. I believe the most disturbing aspect may be the brown nose, arse smacker members that won't post to that thread. A bunch of sunshine pumpers that refuse to hold PCGS at fault for anything. They swallow their principles and ethics and choose to withhold their comments. Then, there is junk like this:

I found some Killer Margaritas, a Jumbo size for $3.88 between 1-7pm at Black Angus...

 

Ahhh, the smell of Strawberry Margaritas!

[rkkay-migration]

Some members over there are kiss-@$$#$, and it is too bad that is the case. Others may actually have valid reasons for not posting negatively at that point in time.

[Oldtrader3]

I take issue with your contention (of reverse snobbery) that anyone who buys high grade certified coins can not possibly enjoy them as much as someone who digs through rolls etc. and "makes" their coins.

 

Many collectors on this site have spent many years putting together sets that are nice sets but not "Top-Pop", but even if they are, so what! You get to collect in the manner that suits you, and so do we! This is what Democracy is all about, remember? Do not portray the rest of us, who work hard to scrimp/save the money and find our coins, in whatever form, in whatever place, in whatever grade, as something less than "true collectors".

 

I don't "MAKE" (is this a verb, or what?) a lot of coins for 2 good reasons: firstly, I am disabled and cannot travel. Secondly, I do not buy many raw coins any more because I cannot look at them in person and I got tired of buying overgraded junk from less than ethical dealers.

 

As a friend of mine says: "We all get to make and drink our coffee the way we like it"! The same holds true for collecting.

[braddick]

Is anyone bothered the orgininal Poster stated, "It's really a dipped out MS61 BROWN, imho" yet sold it as a $3,750.00 (PCGS) MS64RED?

I would think that would be more embarrassing than the mislabel on the attribution.

[gmarguli]

Is anyone bothered the orgininal Poster stated, "It's really a dipped out MS61 BROWN, imho" yet sold it as a $3,750.00 (PCGS) MS64RED?

I would think that would be more embarrassing than the mislabel on the attribution.

 

Nope. PCGS is known to be HORRIBLE on many series. They grade things they shouldn't, but they gotta keep up with the Jones's.

 

Their reputation on pre-US type coins is awful.

[braddick]

Greg- It's not the accuracy of the author's opinion I question (I trust it is correct based on his level of expertise and also the photos provided)- but scratch my head over selling the coin and having misgivings over the "mislabeled" attribution but NOT the misgrade itself?

 

I'd be more concerned over buying a once MS61'ish brown copper that is now a treated "MS64 RED" than I would over who once owned the coin or not.

 

Unless I'm way off base, I thought value was placed on a coin's condition (read: grade) rather than past ownership.

[LucyBop]

I'm glad I can bring you entertainment bushydude... I bet you run around searching for everything I say....

[EVillageProwler]

I think I understand what Pat is trying to say... That the original poster is taking up the issue of wrong pedigree information and yet was fine to sell a coin that he felt was overgraded at the overgraded pricing level.

 

It is true that they are technically two separate issues, but as Pat pointed out... are they really two *separate* issues? And, is it appropriate to look at the issue as a whole instead of in part?

 

I am all for the impartial resolution of the pedigree issue, and hope that the forum membership can make a positive contribution to that matter. But, do we then stand idly by while the other matter goes unresolved?

 

There's something to be said for those who selectively cries foul!

 

EVP

 

[dakra]

Not only did PCGS mess up the Pedigree but the grade as well?

 

Kind of reminds me of those Avis commercials "What if Avis didn't try harder"

 

-Dave

[EVillageProwler]

I would not conclude that PCGS messed up on the grade. Grading is subjective, and the Norweb sale was a long time ago.

 

EVP

 

[goose3]

If you read that thread again towards the end I think they added some more info tonite that may explain why they bought that coin. It will be interesting to see how this plays out for Jade for sure!

[EZ_E]

I think that there is an issue that has not been adequately addressed:

 

the guarantee -- A promise or an assurance that attests to the quality or durability of a product or service. A guaranty by which one person assumes responsibility for another.

 

So where is the PCGS guarantee? Is it just some obscure, abstract idea that sounds good but actually holds no water?

 

Has anyone ever put them to the test on an overgraded coin? Who is to say that the coin is overgraded, anyhow? Since PCGS is the leading grading service, can't they just say, "Sorry, son, but we are the professionals so your complaint is not valid." Would one have to submit the coin to at least three different grading companies to have a valid claim?

 

So, basically, their guarantee is worthless! What about NGC? Have they ever been put to the test? If so, then how did they handle the situation? What must one do to "cash" in on these apparent guarantees?

[Oldtrader3]

What exactly is PCGS's liability here, as regards an attribution error? They guarantee grade, what is their official policy and/or liability on making an attribution mistake? This was a costly error to the owner of the coin. Where does the liability responsibility for the monetary loss lie? Should the owner check attribution before purchase, or is PCGS's liable for a labelling error.

 

I certainly am not qualified to answer this question. Maybe one of the Lawyers on this site can address this issue better.