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The Crossover Highway

Started by Hoot,

45 posts in this topic

Hoot

Hoot

Posted
Posted

I spoke with two terrific numistmatists yesterday: For the sake of greater privacy, I am now withholding their names. Two knowledgable individuals and both very active in the market. I will paraphrase here...

 

One individual talked about the current success rate of crossing "other grading service" coins to PCGS. This person indicated that they will select five of the very best coins for a given grade, send them to PCGS for crossover, and only one will come back crossed!

 

The second individual indicated that their company simply chooses not to participate in the game any more, due to the poor success rate, the ridiculous politics, and what it says about buying the plastic, not the coin.

 

Truly, the more I deal with PCGS, the more I hate them. (I plan on posting about another PCGS issue, but have to think about all I have to say!) They are of no service to the collector community what-so-ever. What they want to do is make their market. However, they are truly stupid. Their standards wave like wands in the wind and then to further complicate matters, they refuse to put top-notch coins in their holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What sense does all of this make? To my mind, PCGS could not be doing themselves more harm. Do they honestly think that astute numistmatists and advanced collectors are going to buy their ? How long can one run a business on the unfortunate newbies and uninformed collectors or investors?

 

Yesterday I sent eight of my PCGS graded coins for downgrading to Rick Montogomery at PCGS due to an argument over designation... but that's the other thread!

 

Hoot

 

Note on edit: My apologies to the numistmatists for initially having named them without first seeking their permission to paraphrase their words. Good, bad, or indifferent, I should have sought their permission, and do not want to damage trusting relationships.

 

Sincerely, Mark Hooten

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Gunsmoke

Gunsmoke

Posted
Posted

Yesterday I sent eight of my PCGS graded coins for downgrading to Rick Montogomery at PCGS due to an argument over designation... but that's the other thread

 

Come on, explain why you would want to downgrade a coin? confused.gif

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keithdagen

keithdagen

Posted
Posted

Three cheers for that statement:

 

Remember the controversial Roanake that was in an ANA holder with wild toning? Tonekiller posted across the street that he and Gsaguy researched the coin throrougly to support their position of real toning. They documented their findings after interviewing prominent dealers who had seen the piece.

 

NGC reviewed the material and the coin, went with the documentation, and slabbed coin. PCGS refused to even look at the research material they put together.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

Keith,

 

I am not at all certain that I disagree with PCGS for not having looked at the "documentation" for the Roanoke.

 

These are my reasons: 1) I believe that all submitters should be treated equally and many do not have the knowledge or ability to present their cases as was done with the Roanoke; 2) If the grading services start allowing arguments/documentation to be presented in that matter, they will potentially be burried in paperwork and arguments; 3) I believe that grading opinions should be issued without knowledge of whose coins are being examined. That becomes even more difficult if you allow a "documentation" process.

 

To me, "the end does not justify the means" here.

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snizzenfixit

snizzenfixit

Posted
Posted

Mark;

 

Then isn't this a lose - lose situation? If you accept the documentation, then there will be complaints for the reasons you state. If you do not accept the documentation then you are unwilling to accept the fact that you could be wrong, and won't accept proof of that. How could a grading company win in this situation?

 

Phil

 

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

Mark: I feel the same way. I tried to cross several Peace Dollars and met the same fate. I also have a bunch of PCGS gold, 20th Century Liberty's (all denominations), that are under graded by PCGS, as well as couple other coins that are overgraded. I need to send couple CC-Eagle's to NCS because they are dirty (the paperwork is coming). Once these coins are preserved, I will resubmit the whole package to NGC.

 

Some of these coins are potentially valuable and I want a fair appraisal of these coins. I do not think that PCGS is being objective. Lately, they have been downgrading every gold coin by a grade. This is politics to support their grade warrantee. I want no part of this and it does not help the hobby. All I ask is a fair appraisal and I will live with the outcome. tongue.gif

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keithdagen

keithdagen

Posted
Posted

Mark,

 

In this instance, the coin was treated like many other coins that come out of major collections. How many Benson coins might have been slabbed as AT had they not come out of that specific collection?

 

The incident may not be the greatest example because the average collector probably could not trace a coin's ownership for the past 30 years, but it does point to the fact that NGC seems to care more about their customers than PCGS.

 

My personal experience with PCGS was requesting a dip or a downgrade of a 1971-S Ike in MS-67. The coin is usually a $500+ coin at that grade, but mine had a heavy coating of haze and gold toning. I showed it to a national Ike dealer as well as a top Registry participant for the series. Both said that the piece was impaired and I was offered the price of a MS-66 piece for it, about $75.

 

I e-mailed the president of PCGS, and requested that he review the piece, and see if PCGS could dip it or downgrade it based on the market offers and the negative eye appeal of the piece. He agreed to review it, and I sent the coin to his personal attention along with the fees for the regrade service.

 

Three weeks later, I got the coin back, with no phone call, no note, no explanation. The coin had not changed in the slightest (no dip), and the piece had been reholdered at the same grade with a nice, fresh insert. I ended up dumping the coin on E-Bay as a package deal. The regrade receipt and the coin, with a no-return policy, $1 open and no minimum and an explanation that 2 Ike experts thought the grade was bogus and the coin was ugly. Blissfully, someone wanted a holder and not a coin, and the coin sold at a price where I did not lose money.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

Phil,

 

In a way it is a lose, lose situation and one that I empathize with, having graded at NGC. But, I do feel it is the best of the available alternatives.

 

And, it is a good example of what a difficult situation the grading services are constantly put in. By that, I mean, that in order to grade completely impartially, they must examine the coins in a vacume, not knowing where they came from or the history behind them. Sure, it would be better in some cases if they knew, for example, that given coins with wild toning had resided in a collection for 100 years. But, if some submitters are allowed to provide that documentaion, than why not all? And, once that starts, the snowball begins, and the impartiality could be run over by that giant snowball.......

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

Keith, you said "In this instance, the coin was treated like many other coins that come out of major collections". I hope that's not correct. My understanding was that there were conversations, etc. about the Roanoke before it was regraded. Ihop ethat is not a common occurrence.

 

My feeling is and always has been, that if a submitter discusses a coin with a grader, that grader should remove himself from the grading process. I do not know what procedures are currently in place at PCGS and NGC in that regard and I am stating my personal opinions. I realize that this is easier said than done.

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keithdagen

keithdagen

Posted
Posted

Mark,

 

I don't know who received the information on the coin's provenance, whether it was NGC management or graders. And I definitely don't want to lose Hoot's point in the process, that PCGS has taken an anti-customer stance in the last several months.

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Gunsmoke - Having PCGS downgrade or re-designate coins based on their shifting standards is really aimed at making the company stew in their own juices. (I don't think that I alone can do this, nor do I think they will even downgrade the coins I sent). If they are going to grade differently for the present, they should live up to it with coins they have overgraded or misdesignated in the past. If they show any consistency at all, they will owe me a couple of grand for the coins I sent.

 

I'd just assume have the coins I sent redesignated/downgraded in order to show clearly that PCGS is creating shifting targets. I'll get the coins back, some remuneration for the grade guarantee, and will be satisfied then that there is a new standard out there. The upshot for buyers will be the old caveat emptor (buyer beware).

 

I truly don't know why PCGS would wish to do what they are doing, as it denegrates and lays suspect the grades and designations assigned to all previous coins they have holdered.

 

Hoot

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Does PCGS guarantee the accuracy of the coins they certified, i.e., will they reimburse you the difference for the value loss if it is downgraded?

 

Yes, that is part of their grade guarantee.

 

Hoot

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

Gunsmoke, that "guarantee" isn't nearly as good as it might sound. After all, THEY are the ones who determine if they will downgrade your coin and pay you the difference. How objective could they be, even if they wanted to be?

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keithdagen

keithdagen

Posted
Posted

Gunsmoke,

 

Read my second (I think) post regarding my Ike Dollar I went for a downgrade on. The Registrant who viewed the piece currently has the #1 Registered MS Ike set at PCGS, and knows his Ikes pretty well.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

The VIEWS count for this thread is going up because of my ``post'' across the street. The flamethrowers haven't been turned on yet, but it's best that we don our asbestos suits now!

 

smile.gif

 

EVP

 

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

Shake, shake, shake.

 

Zip.

 

Ok, I'm ready to talk again...

 

The number of posts were from anonymous readers who clicked on the link from across the street. (They're anonymous because they're not setup to automatically login here.)

 

The thread over there is getting a little bit exciting, albiet not nearly as much as I had feared...

 

EVP

 

PS I gotta go wash my hands now...

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

EVP, you said "The thread over there is getting a little bit exciting, albiet not nearly as much as I had feared." Did you mean "feared" or "hoped"? wink.gif

 

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

i happen to agree with mark felds comments 100% it is reality based and the way things are

 

i mean he is abaolutely right once you start this paperwork documentation tning you open

a can of worms then the graders are not impartial and then you have to do this for all submitters coins now you become

a judge evenmoreso with the already subjective not scientific grading standards

 

the coin should be looked at on its own merits by a grader and then let his opinion stand the only thing is the coin

to look at as it stands on its own merits in the grading room now if after the coin is graded the owner wants to

give documantation about the coin that is full proof like a provananced so be it

 

i mean the roanake if the coin is original and nice then who cares whose holder it is in or if it is raw

ah that is where the problem comes in it does matter to the market hence a bigger price for the same coin

if in a particiular holder.........lol now i get it

 

 

 

i mean grading is an art not a science i mean if you do not like the grade then

take it somewhere else or put the coin in your own inert holder as really it is the coin that matters

 

to me if you start having discussions with graders and then you submit the coin

to them they sohlud remove themselves from the grading process

 

as this is the ethical thing to do and also add the big factor of grading

is an art not an exact science there will always be opinions

 

i really do not like the grading guarantee

 

the authenticity guarantee

yes and a guarantee that the coin has not really been worked on or

majorly cleaned/damaged then yes a guaranttee for that

 

there should be none for a grade

as you cant prescicely grade a coin!!

 

i mean you send it into the service for an grading opinion

then if you sell the coin it is a starting point as to grade if someone likesthe coin they buy

it and if the coin is not the grade well it is up to the buyer to deside

if he likes the coin and the price!

 

if he cant grade a coin then he the buyer has a coihce to make should he buy it or wait and learn more how to grade

and waht a coin that looks like the coin in the holder it is in waht it is worth in the market!!

 

as for me this is a hobby not a necessity thing i can see regulations for the stock market even buying cars to protect

the consumer as these vehicles are not a hobby maybe a necessity maybe not

 

but coins is only a hobby not even close to a necessity thing first find out what you are doing before you buy coins

and if you buy coins let the buyer beware! if you pay your monrey you take your chances now of course i understand that it would be good to meet dealers you can trusyt and rely on that have good charactor and creditionals and offer some

protection but in the end when all is said and done

 

it is buyer beware when you buy a coin you own it the good the bad and the ugly!if you are unsure then pass if not then that is okie just make sure you understand what you are getting yourselff into

 

sincerely michael

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