What does YOUR dealer think of the message boards?

[keithdagen]

OK, here's a true story, although the names have been changed to protect the less-than-innocent:

 

The time -- Friday afternoon in Dallas, Texas.

 

The place -- Heritage Rare Coin Galleries office, a darkened conference room.

 

As is my custom, when a major auction gets posted, I e-mail a buddy at Heritage and ask him to set up a time for lot viewing for me. I go in, and typically look at 20 to 40 coins. I select a mixture of coins that fit into one of three categories -- coins that I need for my Type set and can afford, coins that are really cool no matter what (1796 quarters, 1796 No Stars $2.50's, 1796/1797 Half Dollars), and ultra-high grade Type coins. At this point, I've viewed almost one of every Type of US coin, missing only a dozen that rarely come up for auction in high grade. When is Heritage going to offer an 1808 $2.50???

 

In the past, my contact has pulled the lots for me, and I've been able to view the coins in a well-lit showroom area. If I have questions about the coins, or want an opinion, I trust my contact's opinion. If I ask the right questions, I'll get honest answers about the coins.

 

This time was a little different. There were several national dealers in town looking at lots, so I was taken to the conference room, which was pretty dark, with only small table lamps to light the room and the coins. The entire auction was in long boxes on a big moving cart, all 5,000+ coins. Pretty breathtaking in and of itself.

 

I sit down, get situated, and begin pulling coins to view. As I'm looking, I'm listening to the dealers conversing around me. Seated with me are four dealers, plus my Heritage contact. Dealer A is a national dealer with zero web presence who routinely lists coins on E-Bay. Dealer B is a national dealer who has no web presence that I know of and had never heard of before. Dealer C is a coin doctor. Dealer D never spoke, so I have no idea who he was.

 

The dealers are talking about opinions of other dealers and the coin market. There were some things said about dealers that everybody knows that shouldn't be repeated (and won't be). Somewhere at this point, my Heritage contact interjects that the guys should be careful, and tells them that I'm a spy and that anything they say may be published on the PCGS boards by the end of the day. I respond that I don't much there anymore, but that I might post some of the dirt at NGC's website.

 

A discussion on the concept of message boards ensues, and it is clear that the dealers in question do not think highly of the boards or their participants. A comment was made that there is little posting worth reading unless you're a Kennedy lover. I nearly fell out of my chair when that was said. As the discussion progressed, a couple of the guys fessed to at least reading the boards, and that you could get a quick pulse of what was happening by scanning the boards. In the coin world, news tends to hit the boards pretty fast.

 

Talk turned to David Hall's posting habits, and his perpetual habit of shoving his foot in his mouth every time he writes something. Then talk turned to the idea of some dealers posting regularly and the way that the board members tend to bash the same dealers at every chance they get. I threw out there the idea that being bashed is almost good publicity. Fastest way to get name recognition on the boards is to have someone bash you at least once.

 

When I got done, I left, getting ready to go to Shreveport for the weekend with some friends. However, I did leave with some strong impressions. Dealers don't think very highly of the message boards or the posters who frequent them. Dealers think that their fellow dealers who post are wasting their time. Dealers still don't seem to think that a web presence is important for their business.

[Dermott]

Sounds about like the dealer I dealt with at the Baltimore ANA convention who raised a 20 minute tirade about how he would have never sold me a coin had he known I was going to get it slabbed.

 

They're afraid that they'll get bad publicity on the boards, although if they're a dealer on the up and up, why would they fear such a thing?

 

The message boards in my opinion are a great thing, not only as a place to play "show and tell" with our collections, but as a way to gain information of a questionable piece (i.e. the 1912/1913 barber quarter thread) from someone who may be more knowledgible, but that you would not have access to otherwise.

 

Let them complain about the boards as much as they want to... a GOOD dealer would be utilizing them to keep on top of what goods and services they should provide and when. It amazes me that dealers on the web don't host at least a small board for regular customers to gather and request pieces.

 

The internet message board has become an impromptu coin club that requires nomeeting time or specific physical location for people to access. It allows more knowledge to flow more freely... I guess for some dealers, the more knowledge that's put out about them... the worse their lives (and business) get.

[291fifth]

I really have no idea of what my local dealers think of the boards. None of them have ever mentioned them. Dealers in general probably dislike them because they can quick disseminate information and even the playing field for collectors.

 

Back in the 1980's I recall a very prominent national dealer promoting what was previously thought to be a scarce to rare civil war store card. Because boards did not exist at that time I am sure that many collectors got stuck with this overpriced token (the dealer had apparently located and purchased a hoard of this previously scarce token). Today the word would be out very quickly and far fewer collectors would likely be burned by such a deal.

 

I have been collecting for many years and long ago came to the conclusion that dealers are not collectors "friends" (though they may want you to believe that they are). Collectors are their source of income. Nothing more. Some of you will think this to be a harsh appraisal but that is exactly how I feel about it.

[rkkay-migration]

It seems to me you have to look at who was talking. The feeling I get is that these were old time dealers who don't adjust with the times. Those who do, I would think, are either on the boards or open to them.

[Hoot]

"Dealers don't think very highly of the message boards or the posters who frequent them. Dealers think that their fellow dealers who post are wasting their time. Dealers still don't seem to think that a web presence is important for their business."

 

And the answer is...

 

The internet message board has become an impromptu coin club that requires nomeeting time or specific physical location for people to access. It allows more knowledge to flow more freely... I guess for some dealers, the more knowledge that's put out about them... the worse their lives (and business) get.

 

Could not be more true. Knowledge is threatening to most people, in one form or another. In the world of coins, knowledge is the enemy of many dealers. A great example: the thread currently on these boards about monster toned Morgans tells a lot about that market right now. (1) Beware of the AT'd coins; (2) most Morgans listed as "monster" don't even come close. They may be colorful, but not the kind of eye-popping and appealing that makes a coin a true monster (sensu michael); (3) the average toned Morgan is not hot in the market but the true monsters are still rolling along well. Contrast this with a local Billings dealer who just 3 days ago was busy as heck telling me all about EVERY MORGAN ON THE MARKET WAS SO RED HOT I NEEDED TO BUY THEM ALL!!!!!!! (from him, of course). To make a long story short, I know the guy, he ALWAYS says the market for Morgans is hot, and he collects them with a gambler's compulsion, so he thinks every one else should. Glad I don't.

 

Many, not all by any means, but many dealers are scared to death of informed collectors. (0 - added in - oops) informed collectors often know more about coins than the dealers; (1) informed collectors know, very often, what the true monetary worth of a coin is; (2) most dealers hate being cherrypicked; (3) you can't sell such a collector just anything; (4) informed collectors are focused and know what they like. The message boards promote all of this! The dealers who participate in the message boards aren't afraid of their fellow hobbiests. Take Legend: they know their coins and they expect, EXPECT, their clients/customers to know them as well. No surprises there.

 

Hoot

[truthteller]

Keith,

 

A simple reason why coin dealers today don't like the boards. They are NOT coin collectors, don't care about the collector, don't care about the hobby. Money is the number one agenda, not the hobby. The boards affect these new age dealers bottom line. The forum educates and informs, tells the bad apples from the good apples, and especially points out the coin doctoring. IMO, a dealer who participates on the forum, and refuses to advertise, is a true collector who encourages education. Most new age dealers want the buyer to remain ignorant, it's money in their pocket. Can you imagine what would happen if the big buyers actually knew they were buying AT, doctored coins? Crash! Good story, by the way.

 

 

TRUTH

[chrisfuccione]

It seems that they don't lilke the boards because it gives instant knowledge. More so than was before. Also they know if they screw a coustomer there is a good chance thier name will be spread all over the boards. CHRIS

[gmarguli]

Very interesting. I've encountered almost the same responses that you did.

 

I've walked into coin shops for the first time and after introducing myself had the person there say "Oh, I know you." Scary.

 

I've asked them if they participate and the most common response is an empathic NO. They tell me they'd be eaten alive by the mob mentality that bashes ALL dealers as if they were the devil (referring to PCGS forums). A few dealers I've spoken with will admit to posting, but under "assumed names".

 

Shortly after the David Hall rampage I was contacted by one "very well know dealer". I have a strong feeling that they would not be welcome on the forums. However, they read the forums.

 

Overall, I think that most of the dealers find them to be a waste of time to participate in. I remember being told by one of the participating dealers that he had been told by other dealers that he was wasting his time on the forums. It doesn't seem to enhance business for most of them and they have to spend their time defending themselves.

 

Look at the dealers across the street that participate. You've got one that is a complete scumbag and he's done business with several of the forum members and because he deals in a certain area of coins the few people who have taken over that forum praise him. A bunch of other dealers are fine, honest dealers and they get trashed.

 

One dealer over there got trashed by a user after that dealer bent over backwards for the customer and gave him a great deal on a coin. Why deal with it?

 

 

[shylock]

In some respects the message boards have evolved into a collector's association, a nationwide link that some dealers never counted on. It's one thing for dealers to compare notes, but God forbid collectors start doing it! Those with ethical business practices may find the boards tedious but have nothing to fear. But those who count on the isolation of their clients from each other must find the boards a bit disturbing. And I imagine coin doctors aren't thrilled with jpegs being passed around of their coins as they use to look.

[BushMan]

Look at the dealers across the street that participate. You've got one that is a complete scumbag and he's done business with several of the forum members and because he deals in a certain area of coins the few people who have taken over that forum praise him. A bunch of other dealers are fine, honest dealers and they get trashed.

Greg,

There is one dealer across the street taking credit for getting you banned. He even quoted one of your emails.

<< More laughable threats from this loser:

 

heh,it wont be too hard to go for you pal,you're easily accessible. you hadnt got a clue who you are talking to nor what you are talking about with all your troublemaking ramblings.just popping off like you are somebody important. a friend of mine at heritage rcg in dallas is who email forwarded me your slander when he saw something about pepperdoodles and read further and informed me of who to talk to and the remedy/process to have you removed from c/u permanantly. keep it up and you'll be out. threat? no. promise? yes. and why of course i read c/u boards have for a long while now,it's an integral part of our industry,not yours. we just dont have the time nor the weak stature like you to stoop to participating in your kind of kid stuff. until you crossed the line i was ignoring you and the rest of the whiners. this is not your playground son so be informed.

 

 

I don't know what is funnier, this scumbags pathetic threats or his inability to use grammar. I'm shaking. HAHAHAHA. >>

 

 

just an update:

i told him i'd tell him so. even tried to communicate above and beyond the need/desire....dchump is NEXT

you cannot go around slandering businesses as a bitter,inexperienced,limited knowledged "dabbler" acting like a coin champion and think there will not be repercussions at the finality of the matter.....

Across the Street

[MAULEMALL]

I have a dealer that I have cherry pickin the hell out of........I Hope He Never reads these boards.

NGC should be grateful as well.

 

 

[gmarguli]

Greg,

There is one dealer across the street taking credit for getting you banned. He even quoted one of your emails.

 

just an update:

i told him i'd tell him so. even tried to communicate above and beyond the need/desire....dchump is NEXT

you cannot go around slandering businesses as a bitter,inexperienced,limited knowledged "dabbler" acting like a coin champion and think there will not be repercussions at the finality of the matter.....

 

 

Maybe I should respond using my KenyaBuster account (which still works - just tried it). Naah, he isn't worth it. However, I must say he is REALLY pathetic to bring up an 8 month old thread just to make a useless comment so he can pretend to be a man.

 

For those that don't know, Doops/pepperdoodles screwed a fellow forum member and when he was exposed as the scumbag he is he started sending threatening emails to people. He thought it would work to stop people pointing out what a horrible dealer he is, but it didn't. People just laughed at him and his 3rd

grade education. He kept sending emails to me, but I never even bothered to read them. I can't understand gibberish.

 

Doops/pepperdoodles had nothing to do with me being banned. The only reason I was banned was because David Hall was taking heat for running PCGS into the ground, making it the second rate organization it is, and destroying 90% of its stock value and he freaked when he saw a post containing text from Mark Salzburg pointing out the truth about how NGC has taken over the lead in the coin certification business. Rather than address the real issue of inconsistent grading, damaging of submitters coins, politics in the grading process, conflicts of interest in his company, and much much much more, he decided to try and silence a vocal critic. If he is responsible for my banning, then why did it happen 4 months after he said he knew people who knew me and would get rid of me and blah blah blah.

 

Doops/pepperdoodles has been yapping for so long about how he knows David Hall and all these other people. One of his so-called buddies said he was a piece of [!@#%^&^] when asked about him. Funny thing about him is that he said he "talked" to people who knew me and he "repeated what they said about me" and he was so far off that I knew he was pullling it out of his [!@#%^&^]. I don't think he got a single fact correct.

 

He's a wanker, a loser, a scumbag. That comment also applies to David Hall, who is a wanker, loser, and scumbag on a bigger scale.

[TomB]

It's odd, when I take a table at a show, I often feel like I should not tell other dealers that I post on the boards. The near universal reaction is that it is either a waste of time or they have never heard of it. It's also funny that this was the near universal reaction I had gotten when I started to do a little ebay stuff. I don't sell off ebay anymore but many of those dealers who told me I was wasting my time do still list there.

 

Collectors are almost always enthusiastic that I post on the boards, even if they don't always agree with how I think.

 

I don't worry about it. As for your Heritage contact, I don't think I would have been very happy to have had this person couch their statement the way they apparently did.

[michael]

knowledge is power

 

some not all coin sellers are afraid of knowledgable informed coin buyers as coin buyers with as much or more knowledge

than the coin sellers can not only cherry pick these coin sellers

but will not buy all the coin sellers coins that are not good coins coins the coin sellers need to get out of and sell to uninformed unknowledgable buyers that if they had any knowledge they would not be buying

 

of course they are afraid they should be

 

information and knowledge is power in the coin game god forbid if there were all educated knowledgable practical sensible buyers it would not only make most but not all coin sellers jobs harder it would put many out of business

 

not a good or bad thing just the way it is

 

michael

[keithdagen]

Tom,

 

It was no biggie. What was said by the Heritage employee was all in good nature and part of a running joke that we've had for a really long time. I've learned a ton about coins and what to look for beyond the plastic from them since I've started going down for lot viewing.

[gmarguli]

Someone sent me this link. 1959 Heavy+ Cameo? or pepperdoodles Screw Job

 

Shows what type of person is taking shots.

 

[MAULEMALL]

Tom,

 

It was no biggie. What was said by the Heritage employee was all in good nature and part of a running joke that we've had for a really long time. I've learned a ton about coins and what to look for beyond the plastic from them since I've started going down for lot viewing.

 

I'm envious

[MAULEMALL]

Someone sent me this link. 1959 Heavy+ Cameo? or pepperdoodles Screw Job

 

Shows what type of person is taking shots.

 

 

Man that guy don't take no stuff.

[kranky]

I can't say I'm surprised at what you heard, Keith. You had two dealers with no web presense and a coin doctor, and it would have been a shock to hear any of them say that message boards are a good thing. Nothing in it for them, that's for sure.

 

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I'd like to believe dealers don't look down on the participants. I met a dealer at the ANA who recognized my handle when we got on the subject of the boards (and I don't post all that much!), and I didn't get any negative vibe. Of course, that dealer is frequently praised on the boards (though a non-participant) so maybe that was a factor.

 

It's very true that message boards do help spread the word about things in the hobby both good and bad. I can't see where good dealers have anything to fear - even from people who bash them unjustifiably, because it's just as likely that the satisfied customers will balance things out.

 

It's telling that while they don't think highly of the boards, they still read them.

[jom]

Dealers still don't seem to think that a web presence is important for their business.

 

I'm thinking about this statement and have been wondering whether most dealers need a web presence. I'm not sure they do. At shows many of dealers only deal among themselves and they pretty much ignore retail. I'm not saying ALL do this (certainly not) but that is what I've noticed the most about the coin market for the past ten years or so. For the most part it's "dealers" trying to cherry-pick coins to upgrade and then quickly resell. How you can call that a "business" is anyone guess.....

 

jom

[keithdagen]

Jom,

 

Living in Dallas, you would think that there would be a large show in this area with a lot of national presence dealers. We get one show a year that has 200 tables, everything else is in the class of 50 tables or less, usually the same set of dealers each time. These dealers rarely travel outside of their circuit (Texas, NM, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana).

 

I can work a show in about 30 minutes at this point, because I am familiar enough with the inventory of each dealer that I can usually tell with a glance whether or not there is anything new, and being a Type collector, you learn to spot Type coins in a case pretty fast.

 

Because of this limitation, I end up relying on national dealers or dealers with a strong web presence. Nothing annoys me more to go to a website and find dozens of coins that I might be interested in, except that the only description is NGC AU-58 with nothing that would let me know if the coin is white, toned, PQ, or anything else. One national dealer has several thousand dollars of material that MIGHT interest me, but I would have to request scans of dozens of the coins, because the dealer, as a policy, only provides pics on request.

 

I may only be one guy, but I would bet that there are more like me who would like to expand the number of people they do business with, but want those dealers to list their inventory on a website, and provide pictures of each item without having to be asked. Because so few actually care about this, the few dealers who provide that simple service get the lion's share of my business at this time.

[jom]

KD: I totally agree but I was just pointing out that many (if not most) dealers don't give a [!@#%^&^] about collectors like you or me. They really aren't in it as a retail business. They are in it to make money upgrading. BTW making money isn't the problem here but they serve NO PURPOSE other than cracking slabs.

 

Again, I certainly could be wrong but after observing coins shows here in So. Cal for about 11 years now it is just my impression that dealers mostly deal with other dealers. It just seems to be a "wholesale" market atmosphere for the most part. This, I believe, is shown to be at least somewhat true given the numerous collectors who think it is somehow "normal" to be buying and selling at wholesale (ie having greysheets in hand during shows).

 

I've always found it odd that this market could be sustained with dealers buying most material at auctions and then regurgatating the same coins thru over and over...how does this market not simply crash is something I've yet to figure out.

 

jom

[classicalman-migration]

Keith, I found your story very amusing and worth my time to respond to. Sounds like the dealers there are threatened by the presence of INFORMED collectors who regularly read or participate in internet-based forums. (note the bold type word here ) But then again as has been posted on this thread, if they are really on the up-and-up, what do they have to fear from knowledgeable collectors? Are they afraid they will lose their "edge" and ability to rip people off as easily as the past? Most likely. This only adds to the view of the coin dealer as nothing more than a ripoff artist and con artist. They should worry about this kind of publicity/viewpoint. But then again, the cons don't care, they only care about their next "victim". Unfortunately the honest dealers have to bear this burden also, and that is a shame. They also seem to have a bit of an "elitist" view as to the content of the forums of PCGS. It's a given that on ANY board (this one included) there will be trite postings or something that in some way someone does not agree with. GET OVER IT!!!!!! I read there and here for information, fun , and a chance to share a common interest with people from around the country (and the world). If some elitist snob doesn't like Franklins or Kennedy halves, fine, don't read about them, d**khead!! I am not into those series either, but I do enjoy learning more about them to make myself more informed. Information is power, folks, and those who look down upon the free exchange of information or ideas have something to fear from those who seek out this information or have it. (see above ) Now, as I climb down from my soapbox, let me leave everyone with this: Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn.

Also, "An expert is someone who is afraid to learn anything new for fear that he will no longer be an 'expert' ." (now I know why I haven't any respect for "dealers")

 

[Hoot]

"An expert is someone who is afraid to learn anything new for fear that he will no longer be an 'expert' ."

 

Hmmm... I'd say the true expert is a person who has a profound sense of their limitations and abilitites.

 

Hoot

[IrishMike]

While walking the floor at this year's FUN one dealer did make a derogatory about the CU Board. The dealer is a well respected lincoln cent, indian cent, buffalo nickel dealer who was the brunt of a not so nice thread, but many came to his defense, actually it was his wife who made the comment.

 

I'm not sure how many of the posters are informed collectors, but if I were a dealer I wouldn't worry about much of what is said on the forums. In fact if I were a dealer I would visit there for a daily dose of humor.

[Architecht]

Because of this limitation, I end up relying on national dealers or dealers with a strong web presence. Nothing annoys me more to go to a website and find dozens of coins that I might be interested in, except that the only description is NGC AU-58 with nothing that would let me know if the coin is white, toned, PQ, or anything else. One national dealer has several thousand dollars of material that MIGHT interest me, but I would have to request scans of dozens of the coins, because the dealer, as a policy, only provides pics on request.

 

I may only be one guy, but I would bet that there are more like me who would like to expand the number of people they do business with, but want those dealers to list their inventory on a website, and provide pictures of each item without having to be asked. Because so few actually care about this, the few dealers who provide that simple service get the lion's share of my business at this time.

 

Now see, those guys should just call me. I'll get 'em all set up with a whizz-bang web site.

 

Arch

[EVillageProwler]

I agree with those who says that it is hard to take seriously those comments about the Internet (or the message boards) who have little or no Internet savvy or experience.

 

It's like having a guy who's blind from birth teach you how to do photography...

 

EVP

 

[michael]

an expert is one who knows more and more about lesa and

less

[Oldtrader3]

Interesting post. I think a couple of ideas on this subject have impressed me. The first is that many dealers go to shows to deal only with other dealers. I am not sure how this creates "Value Added" without new customer money being injected into the market. Simple middleman markup is not adding value unless some of these dealers are bringing new stock to the market.

 

Secondly, some of these dealers who do not respect their customer's knowledge and opinions enough to at least support the intellectual credibility of the Message Boards are Dinosaurs! As such, they are marked for extinction. They certainly are not in touch with their customers, which is amply demonstrated by many of these dealers boorish behavior. My bet is that there is a large pool of experience and education on these message sites that is being dismissed or ignored.

 

I wonder if some of these dealers are even computer literate? Maybe for some dealers this is all a smoke screen to hide their computer illiteracy and unwillingness inform themselves or consider modern business concepts. Their behavior also runs totally contrary to the modern marketing management principles of customer facing, and service as components of Total Quality Management.

[CameoCC]

Keith - Your post prompted me to respond.

 

As I read through each response, I sensed some anger and frustration with some dealers - though no names were mentioned. But like most good posts, which this is a good one, the post evolves as it goes on.

 

With that in mind, I would like to offer some thoughts.

 

First, over the last five years I have found more and more people become part-time dealers, sometimes known as vest pocket dealers. They, like full-time dealers, are experiencing the American dream – to make money and there is nothing wrong with that. In my opinion this has blurred the difference between the full time dealer and the part-time dealer. Ebay is the biggest culprit of this blurring. The point is that some of these vest pocket dealers will be full-time dealers in the future and I wonder how they will handle criticism against them. It is easy to point out the problems of others while they have no responsibility of their own for a specific situation which they complain about. I can not count the times where we have argued pricing for the 70 modern material and only to get complain after complain they we are screwing people with high prices or that we gave the coin away – we do get both. So I say relax and if one does criticize as least have a solution to go along with the criticism.

 

Second, Many full-time dealers have lived without technology all of their lives and as the saying goes, “you can not teach an old dog new tricks”. Nothing will convince them to use technology. They are happy going to coin show after coin show selling their wares and I respect that. After all, some of these dealers have forgotten more about coins than all of my knowledge about coins. Further, many of these dealers lived before certified coins existed and as such choose not to have any of there coins graded. But the market has changed and certified coins are here to stay. Should they fail to adapt to the market then they will be out of business in the near future.

 

In conclusion, that is how I view the message boards. They are here to stay and one must learn how to interact with them. Staying on the sidelines is not an option. The message boards are good for the coin industry and shared knowledge is an asset.

 

Todd