The NGC registry point system is WAY out of whack and needs to be revised.

[BillJones]

The NGC registry point system for early U.S. type coin is WAY out of whack and needs to be fixed.

 

A few months ago I purchased a group of Bicentennial type coins for my set. Here’s the list:

 

Coin Grade Registry Points

 

Bicen silver quarter PCGS PR-69 Cameo 366

Bicen clad quarter PCGS PR-69 Cameo 272

Bicen silver half dol PCGS PR-69 Cameo 288

Bicen clad half dol PCGS PR-69 Cameo 320

Bicen silver dollar PCGS PR-69 Cameo 502

Bicen clad dollar PCGS PR-69 Cameo 820

----------

Total Points 2,568

 

I paid $140 for this group, which works out to 18.34 registry points per dollar.

 

Recently I purchased a 1795 half eagle in PCGS AU-55. This coin cost me over $50,000, but it only got 6,400 registry points. That comes to .12 registry points per dollar. Does anyone else see a problem here?

 

I could site many, many examples of this. I've kept it to one to make the point.

[jgrinz]

I am sure the Point system is not based on dollars spent but some areas need work

[BillJones]

I am sure the Point system is not based on dollars spent but some areas need work

 

Isn't it?

 

The outragios money that people pay for "POP 1" modern coins is making that statement untrue. Rarity at least should count for something, and now it's getting shortchanged to give too much credit to coins that have nothing but "condition rarity" in their favor. And in the case of many Proof coin issues, they don't even have that going for them.

[jgrinz]

They do what they can .. They finally fixed the SATIN finish issue and made the Business strikes more points than them now which it should be ..

 

Make sure you notify them with the proper form for your coin type and not here ...

[DC Dawg]

The outragios money that people pay for "POP 1" modern coins is making that statement untrue. Rarity at least should count for something, and now it's getting shortchanged to give too much credit to coins that have nothing but "condition rarity" in their favor. And in the case of many Proof coin issues, they don't even have that going for them.

This is from Arch, which was posted here:

That's deliberate. Early in the NGC Registry's life there was a lot of discussion of the fact that a person with a monster pop1 high value coin could actually take the top spot in some registry categories with a set composed of NOTHING but that one coin. People felt that ranking a single coin set over one that was almost complete and with great coins (but not pop1 monsters) wasn't a good thing.

 

As a result we put in a point adjustment that lowers points at the top end of the scale and raises them at the bottom end of the scale. The result of this is that completeness counts for something and single-coin-sets can't rule the day.

 

Of course someone with a complete set of top quality coins will always soundly beat someone with a complete set of lower quality coins, but people are not encouraged to buy just a few key monsters and blow off the set as a whole.

I think what Arch is saying that rarity counts for something, but NGC's goal is for it to be a registry "set" not a registry "coin."

 

Scott

[BillJones]

You won't get any argument from me about the points for business strikes (higher) than Proofs (lower). That should even apply in most cases for 19th century Proof coins vs. business strikes because quite often the 19th century Proofs are easier to find. That lowers my set score because I’ve been buying Proofs for fill slots when it is financially feasible. I know that going in, and it’s only fair.

 

The point is early U.S. coins have been hard to find and expensive for as long as I've been a really serious collector, which covers almost 40 years. They have also been "the holly grail" for many collectors for over 100 years. Someone should not able to buy a handful of easily to locate common date modern coins, and get as many points for those as one early piece that takes years to find.

[TomB]

It's marketing.

 

The US Type Set is the perfect vehicle to demonstrate the underlying marketing strategy employed by NGC and PCGS to push their product (certification). Giving more common, less expensive and more easily obtainable coinage a higher point-per-dollar ratio allows more folks to make an immediate impact on their registry set score and may serve to nurture their belief that they are making significant, realistic progress within the perceived set competition. Of course, this is not the case if one is racking up bushles of points via the acquisition of relatively common coinage. However, reality and perception do not need to intersect for marketing to succeed.

 

The way to view the registry is to understand that, in general, as the price of an issue increases, the points-per-dollar that the issue earns will decrease. The registry is not "broke", this is how it was intentionally designed. Price and points may be thought of as having an inverse relationship.

[Gregg Bingham]

i have told them it is way out of wack over a year ago...but nothing happened yet

 

case in point

 

in a 50 piece commem set there is absolutely no point difference for having one date verses another for example i have a 37-d oregon in 68* the easiest oregon there is and you have a 33-d in 68* the tuffest there is...we both get the same points....booooooo

 

another case in point ( out of a 100 )

 

i have a pop 1 w/c and only one known ( and pop 1 of all w/c there are ) 51-d and you have a pop 5 alabama ...both are ms 67

 

you get 6,000 points and i get 1900 points...booooo

 

i could go on and on.....AND NGC NEEDS TO TAKE ACTION AND FIX IT..its only been 2 years since i told them about it....hope they are not too busy counting their money :-)

 

imho

 

monsterman

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

I was here during the debate of how the points would work. I argued against that modification, but lost. Arch is correct - a full set with wonder coins beats a full set without them ... it just looks closer than it is.

 

My suggestion is to enjoy the Registry for the other worthwhile benefits and forget about the competition aspect. Then how it's scored doesn't matter one whit!

[CHABSENTIA]

I could buy a lot of common date Morgans in MS65 for 50K..Thats about 350 Morgans with an average of 278 points Thats about 97,000 points.

 

If you are just interested in points then that would be a better option for 50K

[Gregg Bingham]

the reason i left the pcgs resgistry ( and i was one of the original registers on day 1 ) is because there was a guy who came up to me and said i finally beat your morgan set ( what he didnt know was most of the coins offered to him came to me first ) as he passed me by 2 points.......i simply was in love with my 79...80 ... 82.. s-mints and 85-p in 67 ( they went 68 by the guy who bought them from me ...oh well ) ....any way i had a 92-s in 67 and his was in 65....i could of sold my 92-s and down graded to a 66...then upgraded those i just mentioned for about 8,000....put 150,000 in my pocket and passed him

 

so tell me who had the better set.........and thats just by the numbers....as for the quality it was even close...thus when ngc did i star....that put me over the top to change to ngc

 

while not perfect ngc`s registry is far better.....but with some tweeking it could be vastly improved

 

monsterman

[jackson64]

this is a good thread...and I appreciate NGC allowing open discussion of their apparent inconsistencies in coin/point/valuation.........

 

I think that it works to a degree and let me try and explain....

 

I have written a journal article on this very thing ( I used my 1986 $5 gold Stat of Lib and my 1917-D Rev Walker as examples)..the Walker in MS63 cost me 7X the money and is 7times rarer in pop than a PF70 1986 $5 gold commem...yet worth less than half the points....

 

ok, this is how it works...I'm not competing for total points...only for points within the Walker set...and compared to other dates within the series the points are fair

 

Likewise (although inflated when comparing cross-series) the $5 gold coin is comparable when compared to point totals of other modern proof gold coins...

 

I think that they have done a great job of balancing points within each individual series---the inequity occurs when comparing cross-series...

 

you can't have it all..it would be a Herculean task to try and compare every coin ever minted...I mean ,would you want to be the one to compare and assign points for a 1942 Proof dime or a PF69 1971-S Jeff nickel?......................unless you are trying for the overall point ranking, I think it works within each individual series...my 2-cents.........

......................................Jackson

 

PS: I also feel that I should add this, because it is pertinent....remember in the mid 1960's when 1950-D Jeff nickels were a rage item...or in the 80's when an MS65 Columbian expo half was bringing $5000 or more?....it would be chaos if they tried to rearrange the scores every time a series or coin got "hot"...the adjustment would not be for that individual coin but lots of them each time...just not feasible..

[Tradedollarnut]

Don't forget that in a type set all you get credit for is the cheapest example of the type - not what your particular coin might be...

[CHABSENTIA]

I know nothing about the ins and outs of the PCGS Registry. I have a collection of both Proof and Mint State A.S.E In 2006 I bought the 20th Anniversary set. A few years previously I had really not been into a Registry or was a Member of NGC. I had read where the U.S. Mint had produced 40,000 of the 10th Anniversary set but only 30,000 had been sold. The 20th Anniversary set also had the first Reverse proof in History. I had no idea how many were goinf to be produced but I bought it because I had missed out before and the uniqueness.

 

When I received it I opened the package and looked at it in their capsules.I did not join NGC until August of this year. I then find out that because I have opened the set even though I have not removed anything that the Reverse Proof is the only one that qualifies for the Black Label and send it in for grading. It comes back as a PF70. Now I have one coin with a Black Label.There is no slot in the Proof A.S.E. I finally get a regular Anniversary Proof on EBay for $70.00 which is below the Numismedia value. It is a PR70. I did not want to spend the $600.00 for the MS70 Black Label so I finally got a Black label MS69 also at a reduced price.Meanwhile I pushed for the inclusion of the Reverse Eagle in the regular Proof set and was told by NGC that there would be a poll and if the members approved that the Gold Reverse proof would also be included and I said fine.

 

Now I have to think that since this took several weeks that the idea was floated and my points were considered since there are many people who also opened their sets and there are many sold elsewhere that have been opened etc.

 

NGC did listen and put it up for a vote.I couldhave purchased the Black label MS70 and got more points but this was never the issue.I completed the Set both to my desire and to the Economic feasability and the points that resulted are what they are . In the A.S.E Anniversary set the Person with the MS70,PF70 AND RP70 is going to get more points than me.I could have purchased the MS70 but have decided to use more Money on the Morgans.I but what is the best deal.Again the Points are what they are, I have 50 % of the coins in the one per year.All but two are MS 65. All were purchased under Numismedia Value. One of the two exceptions is a 1894 S. This was all the Money I wished to spend and it is a great example of a XF45.

 

I have about 12 Morgans in for grading now and in a few more weeks I should receive them back,The better ones will go into the one just mentioned and the others will go into a second Morgan set that has a 1896 MS64 that I recently received back from grading.Both will go up in points and my overall points will increase greatly and I will move up in rank for those sets and overall points.

 

I will look to see where I am in the Rankings and how I compare with others with the same type of Sets but I never look and others points and try to think how I can beat the people above me.The points I receive will be the Points that I accumulate as I put together my sets according to my desires and abilities.

 

The other day I cleaned out a Deposit Box at the Bank that I had not been to in 18 months.I had a Whitman Album filled with MS Kennedy Halves and some Proofs. I also have the Complete Annual Proof Sets fro 1968 and the Mint Sets from 1970. I also have two tubes of Mercury and Roosevelt dimes as well as a tube of old Jefferson nickles. I have 5 tubes of wheat pennies.

 

My next area will be looking through the above but I won't pay $12.50 or better just to have them slabbed unless they have a lot more value. I also have a 1999 MS 1/10 ounce as well as a 1999 1/10 ounce gold Proof.I have a 1/10 ounce 2000 Proof and a 2006 1/10 ounce Proof Gold Eagle.

 

I will send in the Gold ones and have them slabbed and sell them and use the proceeds for buying more Morgans.Those few aren't enough for a Set and I don't want to accumulate more.

 

Just my take on the sets. Bottom line is the joy of collecting as well as the time and Economic feasabilty involved ,The points are Secondary.

[Revenant]

I look for inconsistencies within the sets that I'm participating in and anytime a see a big problem within the set I use the link and report it. I've had several nice successes getting point scores corrected to values that are more consistent with other coins in the set. The funny thing? The values are almost always for coins I don't have yet so it makes the totals for everyone but me to go up and I drop in rank because of it. The registry isn't my primary motivator but I do believe in fairness in competition.

 

I just recently reported the 2005+ SMS Kennedy halfs in the 21st Century type set. A SMS MS68 gets 123 points in the Half dollar set, but it gets a mind-blowing 820 points in the 21st century type set. That seems insane to me. I have one of them that I got at a great price and if it arrives I'll have to decide whether to add it and take the points or refuse to add it one principle because of that drastically over blown score.

[CHABSENTIA]

Can't comment on this as I am not familar with those coins.I will probably look at the Kennedys as I just found them in my Safe Deposit box.

 

I had a problem wih the A.S.E Eagle Proof for the reasons mentioned.I also had a question about the 1995 W. Not only is this a 10th annivesary coin but there is a slot for it in the Register.It is nice if you bought a 1995w when they were first available. How many people are going to go out and pay several thousand dollars for it to just fill a slot?

 

The 1995 is the same as the other A.S.E except for the date and has a slot. The Reverse Proof which is now affordable and the only one of its kind as well as the 20th Anniversary had no slot but is still an A.S.E. I am pretty sure that whether it is in the 20th Anniversary slot of the A.S.E slot that it has the same points.

 

Since I had a PF70 I jumped up a bit as did others with the same. One ould laso put in a PF69 and a PF69 can be got on Ebay in the $250.00 range while a PF70 probably could be got for about $750.00 so they are still in reach.

 

I don't really look at the points . I had an old 1878 Morgan 7TF that was in a Morgan Album.I thought it was at least MS60 and sent it in to NGC. It came back as a 7TF Reverse of 79 as a AU58.It only has three points in the Registry. At MS60 I think it is 139.

 

I am not sure as I didn't have better magnifcation but I think it might be a VAM. I didn't realize this before but probably still wouldnt have paid a fee for it as I know of at least two Vams in the REV of 79 and NGC doesn't recognize them as they only do hot 50 and top100.

 

I sent it to ANACS.This Vam is worth about $750.00 in AU50. I know the coin hasn't been cleaned etc . ANACS may cross it to MS60 and they may recognize the VAM and they may do neither. Even if ANACS does both I will not be able to include it in an NGC Registry.. It is all about the hunt for me.