Just some thoughts on Bust Half toning

[MikeKing]

And with a sense of humor, I think (the initialization of the different kinds of toning). Just jotted these down and rather than not share it, I'll post this. Would be interesting to see what people have to say on this endless subject.

 

Parameters to describe the toning of bust half dollars

 

The definitions lay within the territory of describing the range

that could exist from ORIGINAL = never dipped, never treated with

intent to color, to ARTIFICIALLY TONED = always dipped and then

intentionally treated with chemicals or heat to simulate natural

toning.

 

1. EO (entiirely original): Unless you can claim the history, as for example coins kept

in a vault from the 19th century onwards, it would be difficult to

claim ORIGINAL but for the exclusion adjective of "probably", as in

PROBABLY ORIGINAL.

 

2. PEO (possibly entirely original): By your sense of observation, examining the coin, it

appears it has never been dipped and that the toning, in all

likelihood, is original.

 

3. OOO (original or very old retoning): By your sense of observation, examining the coin, it

appears as if it's probably never been dipped, possibly original or

retoned so long ago that it is difficult to tell.

 

4. DNT: Dipped and retoned naturally (and the probably natural

subdivision of this); These coins have been dipped at one point as

evidenced by very thin toning skin and/or centrally clear areas.

Even a 'thick skinned' dipped coin can be easily differentiated by

one that was never dipped, because the dipped coins are just too

clean to be entirely natural. There is nothing wrong with dipping

if done right.

 

5. DAT: Dipped and artificially toned (including the subdivision

of probably artificial); Usually central white core and/or very

thin, very very thin toning that is too confluent, too monochromed,

too extensive peripherally to likely be naturally caused. Rather,

it is induced.

 

I am uncertain that the rules that apply to thin films are

necessarily indicative of natural toning (see prior toning post by

other board members).

 

Thumb prints may be a vehicle of application of chemicals which

accentuate toning, so 'old thumbprints' are not indicative of NT as

often claimed in auction reviews and dealer inventory descriptions.

Additionally, an AT coin can have a thumb print on it because

someone picked it up that way.

 

Just because it's brown, doesn't mean its not AT.

 

You're best bet is to assume nobody knows what they are talking

about, especially the TPG's and 'old time' bust dealers. Busties

have been AT'd since gosh knows when, so I assume AT was perfectly

acceptable to enough people in the early 20th century, before

TPG's, that Busties were routinely AT'd.

 

Learn to differentiate between 'album' toning and kraft envelope

toning. Both can be pretty colorful.

 

A dipped coin stuck in a kraft envelope for 30 yr could be totally

ugly or amazingly beautiful. If it didn't occur within 30' in

someones oven or a few weeks on their porch or windowsill, I'd call

it NT. Otherwise, it's AT.

 

Yes, I have seen the same coins in one auction, sell with 'album

toning' (accelerated album toning) or 'blatant' AT within a couple

of months of each other.

 

If, when you look at a coin, you feel like someone was sitting

there with their chemistry set and a bunsen burner, chances are,

it's artificially toned.

 

I want to start some threads for different kinds of toning and

elicit others to start similar threads if the ones I start aren't

entirely inclusive of what you consider a 'kind' of toning. Or if I

don't get around to it, maybe someone else can.

[MBA101]

And with a sense of humor, I think (the initialization of the different kinds of toning). Just jotted these down and rather than not share it, I'll post this. Would be interesting to see what people have to say on this endless subject.

 

Parameters to describe the toning of bust half dollars

 

The definitions lay within the territory of describing the range

that could exist from ORIGINAL = never dipped, never treated with

intent to color, to ARTIFICIALLY TONED = always dipped and then

intentionally treated with chemicals or heat to simulate natural

toning.

 

1. EO (entiirely original): Unless you can claim the history, as for example coins kept

in a vault from the 19th century onwards, it would be difficult to

claim ORIGINAL but for the exclusion adjective of "probably", as in

PROBABLY ORIGINAL.

 

2. PEO (possibly entirely original): By your sense of observation, examining the coin, it

appears it has never been dipped and that the toning, in all

likelihood, is original.

 

3. OOO (original or very old retoning): By your sense of observation, examining the coin, it

appears as if it's probably never been dipped, possibly original or

retoned so long ago that it is difficult to tell.

 

4. DNT: Dipped and retoned naturally (and the probably natural

subdivision of this); These coins have been dipped at one point as

evidenced by very thin toning skin and/or centrally clear areas.

Even a 'thick skinned' dipped coin can be easily differentiated by

one that was never dipped, because the dipped coins are just too

clean to be entirely natural. There is nothing wrong with dipping

if done right.

 

5. DAT: Dipped and artificially toned (including the subdivision

of probably artificial); Usually central white core and/or very

thin, very very thin toning that is too confluent, too monochromed,

too extensive peripherally to likely be naturally caused. Rather,

it is induced.

 

I am uncertain that the rules that apply to thin films are

necessarily indicative of natural toning (see prior toning post by

other board members).

 

Thumb prints may be a vehicle of application of chemicals which

accentuate toning, so 'old thumbprints' are not indicative of NT as

often claimed in auction reviews and dealer inventory descriptions.

Additionally, an AT coin can have a thumb print on it because

someone picked it up that way.

 

Just because it's brown, doesn't mean its not AT.

 

You're best bet is to assume nobody knows what they are talking

about, especially the TPG's and 'old time' bust dealers. Busties

have been AT'd since gosh knows when, so I assume AT was perfectly

acceptable to enough people in the early 20th century, before

TPG's, that Busties were routinely AT'd.

 

Learn to differentiate between 'album' toning and kraft envelope

toning. Both can be pretty colorful.

 

A dipped coin stuck in a kraft envelope for 30 yr could be totally

ugly or amazingly beautiful. If it didn't occur within 30' in

someones oven or a few weeks on their porch or windowsill, I'd call

it NT. Otherwise, it's AT.

 

Yes, I have seen the same coins in one auction, sell with 'album

toning' (accelerated album toning) or 'blatant' AT within a couple

of months of each other.

 

If, when you look at a coin, you feel like someone was sitting

there with their chemistry set and a bunsen burner, chances are,

it's artificially toned.

 

I want to start some threads for different kinds of toning and

elicit others to start similar threads if the ones I start aren't

entirely inclusive of what you consider a 'kind' of toning. Or if I

don't get around to it, maybe someone else can.

 

Looks like you just defined insanity right there thats what I think.

[coinman1794]

As I was reading through, and in my own mind going over each stage I could think of, you nailed each one down. This should be a very informative post for those interested in the originality of early halves, and indeed, most 18th and 19th century silver coins.

[stman]

Good post, perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I would add a coin can be original, or original looking and have something "added" to it to enhance the beauty, or cover up a problem. I believe many folks don't think about this issue..... and it is a big issue IMO.

[WinstonWare]

IMHO patination, skin, whatever you want to call it is the single largest factor when attempting to determine originality.

 

As a side note, I’m a little surprised that the TPGs and PCGS in particular slab blatantly messed with coins. I would encourage folks who are looking for originality to be very distrustful of the TPGs for this series.

 

This is a good thread on an important topic

[gmarguli]

IMHO patination, skin, whatever you want to call it is the single largest factor when attempting to determine originality.

 

What happens when that "skin" is faked over AT to give the impression of NT?

[WinstonWare]

IMHO patination, skin, whatever you want to call it is the single largest factor when attempting to determine originality.

 

What happens when that "skin" is faked over AT to give the impression of NT?

 

Hum I wasn’t aware that a good patina could be created. You're saying that it can be?

 

Perhaps, I can share a coin for discussion. First let me say that this coin was purchased on ebay and I can’t even recall whom I bought it from. To my eyes, this coin appears original because of the heavy patination on the coin. Would you agree with that or do you think/know that this is something that can be created, helped along, whatever?

 

[rbrown4]

Winston

 

I certainly am not that experienced with these type coins but based on my limited experience and what I think I have learned I would intially say that this is original. I am interested to see what other, more seasoned folks think and have to say.

 

Rey

[rrantique]

Mike, thanks for a very informative post. I think you got it nailed down. While toning has been the topic of a great number of post, IMHO, there are so many variants, color pattern, humidity, environment, location whether it is on a shelf somewhere,kraft envelope, poly bag, or whatever, it will remain a topic of concern.

 

Winston your coin has some original patina that i have seen before on cbh's. But the majority of these i have seen carry a gun metal grey patina.

[123cents]

Great post Mike. With so much "going on" with bust halves as well as others coins, I will not pay much of a premium for a toned coin. My main concern when buying a coin is determining whether the coin has been cleaned and has obvious hairlines. I also look for coins that I think have been correctly graded and have nice eye appeal.

[RGT]

My first thought on opening this thread was "what is it that makes bust halves tone differently than other coins", and I read the post with that question in mind. I think you did a good job of describing different paths to tone though I'm sure some other side pathes could be described. What I didn't read was what makes this unique to bust halves. I think that is because there is nothing about it that cannot be applied to other coins. Of course more modern coins couldn't have 150 years to retone after an old cleaning.

 

I think you just limited the tone discussion way too much by applying it only to bust halves.