How far do you go in the name of coin "conservation"

[lkenefic]

I've always thought that cleaning or dipping coins whether they be copper or silver was a definite "no no". I've been drilled that cleaning tends to lead to hairlines while dipping strips off the upper layer of metal potentially leading to more problems down the line or a "dipped-out" dull looking coin if done too many times or done improperly. Obviously, there are conservation services that can deal with problems, stop corrosion, and turn an otherwise problem coin into something passable, but generally the buyer knows what they're getting into from the outset and the conserved "problem" coin is sold as such.

 

So, how far do you go in the name of coin "conservation" and how far do you go in informing potential buyers of the history of any "conserved" coin? I'll go first...I will acetone dip off dirt and will go so far as using a Q-Tip to dislodge dirt, I'll soak copper in olive oil [all pretty tame stuff] but I draw the line at stronger solvents such as MS70 and I've never "recolored" anything...

[Zoins]

I haven't done any conservation yet but, from what I've seen, some level of conservation seems to be a necessary part of coin collecting if one wanders outside of ultra-moderns.

 

I just picked up this raw SCD and some of the problems weren't evident in the seller's photos, namely the spots on the left rays on the obverse were very light and the vast majority were not visible, but also on the reverse, the bright green verdigris was not visible.

 

Since I don't have any conservation experience and I'm too busy to learn/experiment at the moment, I'm just letting the corrosion eat away at the metal for now but it's on my list to learn about, try to remove and stop.

 

 

Any tips on removing and halting this verdigris would be appreciated.

 

PS: I sense a hint of disapproval in the description of the last option while you seem to give neutral descriptions of the other choices, some of the ones you engage in.

[lkenefic]

Zoins...yeah...point taken... I've been burned more than once by sellers who have sold me cleaned or dipped coins only to realize the extent of the damage when I went to sell them. Does it show??

 

Anyway, I suppose it helped me surmount my learning curve but it's still a harsh lesson. I hope people that find these boards learn before dropping a few hundred [or a few thousand in some cases] dollars on a worthless POS.

 

L

[leeg]

Very nice piece!! Acetone and a rose thorn will do the trick for you. Use 100% Acetone and ensure well ventilated area and it's very flammable. Ensure you keep the acetone clean and use a glass container for the Acetone. Attempt at your own risk. Practice on other, non valuable pieces, first.

[Zoins]

Zoins...yeah...point taken... I've been burned more than once by sellers who have sold me cleaned or dipped coins only to realize the extent of the damage when I went to sell them. Does it show??

 

Anyway, I suppose it helped me surmount my learning curve but it's still a harsh lesson. I hope people that find these boards learn before dropping a few hundred [or a few thousand in some cases] dollars on a worthless POS.

Sorry to hear you were burned Ikenefic but it's great that you are responding by educating people. Losing a lot of money can be a real disappointment and turn people off from collecting completely so it's good to get more information out there.

[Zoins]

Very nice piece!! Acetone and a rose thorn will do the trick for you. Use 100% Acetone and ensure well ventilated area and it's very flammable. Ensure you keep the acetone clean and use a glass container for the Acetone. Attempt at your own risk. Practice on other, non valuable pieces, first.

Thanks Lee, this is one of my favorite SCD designs. I appreciate the tips on using Acetone for this. I'll try it out since I really don't like the idea of continuing problems

[123cents]

Very nice piece!! Acetone and a rose thorn will do the trick for you. Use 100% Acetone and ensure well ventilated area and it's very flammable. Ensure you keep the acetone clean and use a glass container for the Acetone. Attempt at your own risk. Practice on other, non valuable pieces, first.

 

Does a rose thorn actually work better than a toothpick??

[harpoon111-migration]

What does the acetone do to copper? Is there anything that removes carbon spots safely? Olive oil? I thought that was for pasta!

[leeg]

Does a rose thorn actually work better than a toothpick??

Yes. A toothpick can cause hairlines.

[leeg]

What does the acetone do to copper? Is there anything that removes carbon spots safely? Olive oil? I thought that was for pasta!

Acetone will remove residue and stabilize the surfaces. It will also dry out copper surfaces. Nothing will remove carbon spot's that I'm aware of.

[Doogy]

I have a beautiful Prussian 3 Mark, 1913 NGC proof 65 cameo. Some buffoon left a smeared mark on it (looks like a partial fingerprint that hasn't toned yet) in the obverse field. it is quite small, but shows up when you look closely. i'm sending it in to NCS where i assume they'll conserve it by dipping it, and re-holdering. IMHO, i'm doing a good thing for the coin, before it turns into nasty toning. i have no intention of the grade going up or anything, i just want to get rid of the smear and it will go back into my collection as a keeper.

[physics-fan3.14]

I am really surprised by the number of people who chose the last option. Maybe I'm just naieve, but that seems like a disproportionate fraction of the responders, 22%.

 

I have never heard of using a rose thorn before, I might try it next time roses are available (which is pretty much never.)

[IGWT]

I can only assume that Greg has 6 alts.

[coinman1794]

It is unusual to see such a response to the last option, only because I would not place the last option under the umbrella of conservation. It crosses the line into doctoring. “Working” coins has become very commonplace in the field, but not all procedures are equal. Some are very good, others are very bad.

 

There are many ways to "work" a coin without harm; this is conservation, and it is usually beneficial to long-term preservation. It removes surface grim and contaminants that precipitate reactions, and it does not leave residues that lead to surface instability. The only potentially negative affect of true conservation is that the coin may no longer qualify as original, but not always.

 

Methods that disrupt the actual metal of the coin, i.e. dipping that strips and abrasive cleaning that scratches, do not preserve, but rather damage. The only exception to this is an improperly dipped coin that needs a second dip to stabilize it. Even then, the dipping is only the lesser of two evils. Further, no matter how professionally a dip is administered, the coin is not guaranteed to remain stable afterwards. I have personally seen NCS dipped silver coins that “turned” in their NGC holders after a very short period of time. One time one turned before I got it back from them, i.e. 48 hours. Dipping is not preservation and rarely, if ever, conservation, nor is it a practical tool for long-term stability.

[gmarguli]

I can only assume that Greg has 6 alts.

 

Nah, I just use my moderator powers to edit the database here.

 

Actually, while I did pick that answer, I did so only because that was the closest one to my views. However, I did not agree with it 100% as it does cross the line in my opinion. While I have zero problem with dip and strip, I would not putty a coin or alter it in that way.

[WinstonWare]

While I have zero problem with dip and strip, I would not putty a coin or alter it in that way.

 

That’s actually pretty interesting...

[JamminJ]

I am really surprised by the number of people who chose the last option. Maybe I'm just naieve, but that seems like a disproportionate fraction of the responders, 22%.

 

I have never heard of using a rose thorn before, I might try it next time roses are available (which is pretty much never.)

 

I chose the last option. My specialty is turning AU coins into mint state ones.

[lkenefic]

It is unusual to see such a response to the last option, only because I would not place the last option under the umbrella of conservation. It crosses the line into doctoring. “Working” coins has become very commonplace in the field, but not all procedures are equal. Some are very good, others are very bad.

 

There are many ways to "work" a coin without harm; this is conservation, and it is usually beneficial to long-term preservation. It removes surface grim and contaminants that precipitate reactions, and it does not leave residues that lead to surface instability. The only potentially negative affect of true conservation is that the coin may no longer qualify as original, but not always.

 

Methods that disrupt the actual metal of the coin, i.e. dipping that strips and abrasive cleaning that scratches, do not preserve, but rather damage. The only exception to this is an improperly dipped coin that needs a second dip to stabilize it. Even then, the dipping is only the lesser of two evils. Further, no matter how professionally a dip is administered, the coin is not guaranteed to remain stable afterwards. I have personally seen NCS dipped silver coins that “turned” in their NGC holders after a very short period of time. One time one turned before I got it back from them, i.e. 48 hours. Dipping is not preservation and rarely, if ever, conservation, nor is it a practical tool for long-term stability.

 

This is actually the sort of discussion I was hoping to initiate...when do efforts to stop corrosion or damage to a coin [such as PVC] cross the line into coin "doctoring".

 

Since I'm mainly collecting early coppers these days, I'm quickly coming to the realization that there probably aren't very many [that I can afford] with totally "original" surfaces. At some point in time most of the VF-AU pieces that I'm looking at have undergone some kind of conservation. Some coppers are recovered nicely with just removing dirt with acetone and some time in olive oil. The surfaces look exceptionally nice even at 30x magnification under a stereo-microscope. Aggressive removal of dirt and/or vertigris looks much worse and can leave scratches at worse or hairlines at best.

 

One thing that hasn't been addressed is the profit motive. IMHO, it's a good thing to try to stop damage to a coin; however, I think there's a line in the sand where the motive is directed away from this effort to that of just being purely for profit. Is it the dip itself that makes it cross the line or is it that people get motivated by profit that makes it cross the line? What happens to all of those "doctored" coins in ones collection [assuming you're keeping all of them] after you die and your hiers are left to sort everything out?

 

L

[coinman1794]

I think, certainly, the reasons for such a flurry of activity in dipping are profit driven. For every one of us who appreciates original coins, there are a hundred others who either prefer white or just don't understand that toning can be desirable and avoid it, often not realizing what has been done to make those coins white (Show an original, rainbow toned Morgan and a white Morgan to a non-collector, and they will prefer the white one nine out of ten times, in my experience). Thus the motivation for dipping is eye-appeal driven and very strong. It's a shame that conservation methods are not attempted before resorting to dip, because sometimes the end results looks just as nice, and the coins are stable, as well.

 

There is an argument that because toning is equal to rust, it is bad and must be removed. However, the removal of toning is also bad because it requires striping or scraping the surfaces of the coin.* So those that propose doing that in the name of conservation are technically incorrect. It may improve short term eye appeal, but the damage is already done on a toned coin. Thus, conservation would entail stabilization of the existing surfaces and long-term storage precautions to prevent further deterioration, not stripping the toning away and further hurting the coin. The stripping comes when financial motives are in play.

 

Early copper is something of an anomaly in that it is very unstable and prone to corrosion. I would say that using oil to remove verdigris is a form of conservation. The oil will help preserve the surfaces and I don't think it has any striping effect. Any massaging action that leads to hairlines would certainly be cleaning, and of course, dipping is striping and is unstable, at best.

 

* Generally, conservation methods do not remove toning. Often a coin is covered in grease, grim, dust, and dirt from years of circulation, shelf-life, or even minting procedures. These residues will often create a film on the surface that reacts with the air and changes colors over time; it looks like toning, but it isn't. And, conservation will remove this layer, exposing the original surfaces of the coin, along with any toning that may be there. Often this layer of grim has protected the original surfaces from toning, and bright underlying surfaces are found beneath. Removal of the actual toning, then, requires biting into the metal itself, either with acid or abrasive instruments; this is cleaning because it damages the coin.

[James_OldeTowne]

I own a partially used bottle of MS70 - the bottle I bought for my blue wheat-cent experiment last year. I have never bought, and have never owned even a drop of coin dip, though. Blue Ribbon is the only other product I have owned - the bottle has lasted me probably five years!