Is this or isn't this an O-121 1836 Half?

[Heavymetal]

 

 

First, a little background information on the coin. The coin in question was passed down from my Father-in-law, a great, old, long-time coin collector. When he passed away, most of the knowledge of his collection passed with him. My family and I are now playing catch-up.

 

The coin: 1836 Half Dollar with an Overton -121 Variety attribute. The coin was graded by NGC and received a grade of XF-40 and the O-121.

 

The issue: I put this up for sale on the Bay and it was immediately purchased. After a few days, the buyer returned it. He said it wasn't an O - 121. I did not know for sure, only what was printed on the NGC label. The ins and outs of the Early Half Series are well beyond my limited area of expertise. (I'm trying to learn every chance I get but it "looks like learning this coin stuff is going to take a while”, Ha, Ha.) Next, I relisted the coin again. I had no clue who the previous buyer was, really. Maybe he developed a case of Buyer's Remorse. This time, a listing viewer emailed me that the coin didn't appear to be an O-121 to him either. He instructed me to take a straight edge and line it up with the points of star 12 on the obverse and extend the lines to the date. On an O-121, the line should run through the bottom of the eight in the date. I did this test and even though it was open to interpretation (Because of the thickness and small size of the star points I could get the line to hit the eight or the three depending on how I did it), the line seemed to hit the three more easily. I cancelled the auction and as advised by the helpful Ebay emailer, sent the coin back to NGC for a designation revue with the notation that I did not think that this coin 's attribution was correct. The coin returned with the notation that the "coin is properly attributed." NGC also enclosed a picture-containing copy of page 288 of a reference book, I don't know which one, which showed the qualities of an O-121 Variety. Interestingly enough, after studying the coin under my newly purchased microscope, it appears to me that this coin contains 2 out of 3 of the qualities of the O-121.

 

Qualities common to the O-121 from the reference page:

 

Picture #722- on the reverse of the coin, the lower tail feather pierces well through the leaf stem. This is definitely the case with this coin. The feather is through the stem, plain as day. I see no corrugated lines that an O-105 has near the denomination.

 

Picture #723- There are clearly gaps in the dentils between stars 8 and 9 and near star 9. The helpful Ebay emailer thought that this coin might be an O-105. I'm afraid my pictures were not good enough to illustrate this area of the coin. This quality found on the coin would rule out the O-105.

 

Picture #724-Running the straight line from star 12 to the date. As described earlier in this post, to me this (on this coin anyway) is inconclusive.

 

Finally, My Questions: Is it possible that this coin can contain 2 out of the 3 qualities of an O-121? Is that enough to qualify it as an O-121 or does it mean that this coin needs to be designated by some other as yet unknown designation? If I decide to continue to sell this coin, how would "you guys" market this coin seeing as how everyone who views the pictures of it is confused by it? Thanks in advance for any replies to this post. I have found the this Half has taken up much more of my time than I originally thought it would but it is very interesting. I will attach pictures, I hope (1st time).

[Heavymetal]

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[Heavymetal]

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[numismatica]

 

I don't see any images. Can you email the pics to me?

 

dennis@tarrant-numismatica.com

[MBA101]

Yes, use photobucket or something of that sort to attach some pics. We can then pull out the Overton's so-to-speak.

[123cents]

Good to see you posting over here Dennis. We can use your expertise.

[Heavymetal]

I can't seem to get my pictures under 200K with enough detail to be of any use in this discussion. I will try again later. Note to CS, if you could raise your Picture size limit to 215K it would help me tremendously.

[Heavymetal]

Hello again, thanks for the help with Photobucket. I had never heard of them. Here goes...Pictures:

 

[numismatica]

Good to see you posting over here Dennis. We can use your expertise.

 

Thanks 123cents. Don't know about "expertise" though.

 

Regarding heavymetal's 1836 half, it is far easier to attribute coins if we have a full image of both the reverse and the obverse. The enlargements are useful as well, but they are secondary to images of the complete coin.

 

That being said, I will take a shot at the attribution based on the few detail shots you provided. It is O-105 (EDS), which uses the same reverse die (D) as O-121. I am trying to distinguish between the obverse dies at this point, since Rev. D is the only reverse of this year that has the eagle's tail extending into the olive branch, and this die is only used on 105 and 121.

 

The key factor in this attribution is the relation of star 13 to the dentils. Note that one O-105, the star points between two dentils, whereas on O-121 it points to the center of a dentil.

 

Conclusion: NGC missed the boat on this one......twice. The good news is that O-105 was upgraded from an R.3 to an R.4-. That doesn't translate into a big financial gain, but it is better than R.1. O-121 is an R.5+ and worth a big premium. A certified AU would be worth over $3,000 today.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Dennis

[Heavymetal]

Thanks for your time and efforts. Here are pictures of the complete front and back of the coin....

 

 

 

[numismatica]

 

Okay, that helps! Based on the date orientation and the shape of the 3, I will say that I am more confident that this is an early die state of O-105. Nice coin.

[MBA101]

I agree with O-105. And Overton has both 105 and 121 listed as R4.

[numismatica]

I agree with O-105. And Overton has both 105 and 121 listed as R4.

 

O-105 is now an R.4- and O-121 is R.5+. Actual auction results reflect the respective rarity ratings. Are you using the new 4th edition of Overton (now called Parsley)? I owned that edition very briefly and then went back to the 1990 3rd edition.

[MBA101]

Yeah I have the new one. I also know about the Souders web site that has updated rarity ratings. I just looked and you are correct.

 

It makes me wonder sometimes as well, that there are many "common" overtons (for example, 1813 O-106) that seem like they are much much scarcer than what its rating suggests.

[numismatica]

Yeah I have the new one. I also know about the Souders web site that has updated rarity ratings. I just looked and you are correct.

 

It makes me wonder sometimes as well, that there are many "common" overtons (for example, 1813 O-106) that seem like they are much much scarcer than what its rating suggests.

 

As for reference material for Bust Halves, I would strongly recommend using the 3rd edition of Overton. There's a list of errors found in the 4th edition, and the errors are well into the hundreds.

 

Another very valuable reference is Steve Hermann's auction prices realized. It's a compilation of auction appearances (with details) of every variety of every date. Very important. It costs $25 and is updated twice a year.....I think. Of course you have to pay for the updates, but it is well worth the money.

[GAB]

This is definitely an O-105.

The easiest way to make this determination - once you have narrowed the REVERSE down to Rev D - is to look at the lower/inner points of stars 8 and 9. If they are FAT, it's a

105. If they are narrow and short (especially star 9) then it is an O-121. There are a

few other "tricks", but they are not as reliable on coins with wear. I could not tell from the

pic's, but I suspect there is a rim gap just above the highest point in Liberty's cap on your coin.

[Heavymetal]

Sorry for the late reply, I was away. It appears to me that the lower points of stars 8 and 9 are indeed fat which would make this coin according to your description a 105. My next question is, what should be my next step with this improperly labeled coin? Do I send it back to NGC for the third time?

[MBA101]

I would call them and explain before sending it back...

 

Let them look at this thread!