How likely are there undetectable counterfeits today?

[Zoins]

The responses in Mike's Counterfeit hypothetical thread indicate that some collectors would be upset and/or leave coin collecting if there existed known undetectable counterfeits. For undetectable counterfeits to become generally known, it seems there would have to be a whistle blower. Absent that, how likely are people ever to find out?

 

Given the impressive nature of many counterfeits that are detectable with very minor diagnostics, how likely is it that there are no undetectable counterfeits in TPG slabs today? Does it seem plausible, or even likely, that undetectable counterfeits exist today and have existed for some time? Or is 21st Century counterfeit coin technology simply not good enough?

[MunkyMan95]

HIGHLY likely.

[astrostu]

I think it's probably pretty likely. And although I would hate to find out (if I actually had a very valuable coin) that it were counterfeit, at the point that it's passed through all these third-party graders and dealers, it almost deserves some sort of value as such a good counterfeit (though I wouldn't be happy with it, I'm sure someone else would).

[stinkycheese1]

Gosh I hope its unlikely, since I collect gold coins and they are counterfeited the most. I'd hate to think my coins are counterfeit. I like knowing the coins have had a long history.

[MunkyMan95]

Gosh I hope its unlikely, since I collect gold coins and they are counterfeited the most. I'd hate to think my coins are counterfeit. I like knowing the coins have had a long history.

 

I know for a fact the coin in your sig line is counterfeit

 

(here we go again...)

[cpm9ball]

I recall watching a story on the History Channel (Or Discovery Channel) about someone who mastered the art of counterfeiting casino chips and gaming tokens. His work was so good that the companies that made the chips could not find any difference between the real ones and the fakes. That, in itself, is quite a feat because the technology used to manufacture them easily rivals that of the U.S. Mint. It seems that some of the casinos in Atlantic City and Las Vegas were finding unexplained overages in their inventories. A New Jersey detective who investigated and solved the case got a lucky break when he was examining a video tape of one casino's high-dollar slot areas. It revealed a man playing on a $100 slot machine. When the machine apparently jammed with his $300 bet, he just got up and walked away. The detective reasoned that nobody walks away from $300. When the police finally had enough evidence for a search warrant, they found all of the manufacturing equipment in his home and hundreds of thousands of dollars in counterfeit chips and tokens in the trunk of his car. To this day, the casinos still have no idea how many counterfeits remain in circulation. They just can't tell the difference.

 

Chris

[stinkycheese1]

I recall watching a story on the History Channel (Or Discovery Channel) about someone who mastered the art of counterfeiting casino chips and gaming tokens. His work was so good that the companies that made the chips could not find any difference between the real ones and the fakes. That, in itself, is quite a feat because the technology used to manufacture them easily rivals that of the U.S. Mint. It seems that some of the casinos in Atlantic City and Las Vegas were finding unexplained overages in their inventories. A New Jersey detective who investigated and solved the case got a lucky break when he was examining a video tape of one casino's high-dollar slot areas. It revealed a man playing on a $100 slot machine. When the machine apparently jammed with his $300 bet, he just got up and walked away. The detective reasoned that nobody walks away from $300. When the police finally had enough evidence for a search warrant, they found all of the manufacturing equipment in his home and hundreds of thousands of dollars in counterfeit chips and tokens in the trunk of his car. To this day, the casinos still have no idea how many counterfeits remain in circulation. They just can't tell the difference.

 

Chris

 

Chris, I remember hearing about the story too. Maybe it was on court TV, I don't remember. It was a goods tory.

[Conder101]

When you consider that until they are detected some how, they were undetectable, then yes I do believe they exist. I would pretty much guarantee there are undetected counterfeit morgan dollars in both NGC and PCGS slabs right now. PCGS didn't figure out the Micro O dollars until 2003 although they have probably been around since the late 19th century and early 20th. (NGC figured them out in 1998 or 99.) PCGS's official line is that only 95 micro O dollars made it into their slabs. But that is most likely not true and there are more out there than that. The 95 figure comes from the ones they slabbed AFTER 1998 when they first began putting the Mirco O on the labels. How many were slabbed between 1986 and 1998 is unknown. The same goes for NGC between 1987 and 1998.

 

Then there is something else. We know that at least one of the obverses for the counterfeit micro O was mated with a different reverse die. Possibly the other two were as well. So those coins would also be counterfeits. And were those other reverses matched with yet more obverses?? If these potential links aren't explored and the other dies identified then counterfeits from those will continue to be slabbed as genuine because at the moment, they are undetectable. So how many counterfeits from this guy are out there? This is why die variety and die state research is important.

[Keleum]

Is it legal to collect counterfeit coins? Seems like a "cheap" yet interesting hobby?

 

I always wondered why casino chips didn't have serials like bills. seems that would be an easy way to catch counterfeiters.

[MikeInFL]

I think it is highly likely that counterfeits exist in holders of today. As Conder pointed out, the Micro-O Morgans are the latest example, but it seems very likely others exist. The good news is that, unlike artifical toning, there is some recourse left for those who collect certified coins, as the TPGs seem to be stepping up to the plate on the counterfeit issue....Mike

[stinkycheese1]

I really hate this thread. It makes me not want to collect coins.

[MunkyMan95]

It's deja vu all over again

[Zoins]

When you consider that until they are detected some how, they were undetectable, then yes I do believe they exist. I would pretty much guarantee there are undetected counterfeit morgan dollars in both NGC and PCGS slabs right now. PCGS didn't figure out the Micro O dollars until 2003 although they have probably been around since the late 19th century and early 20th. (NGC figured them out in 1998 or 99.) PCGS's official line is that only 95 micro O dollars made it into their slabs. But that is most likely not true and there are more out there than that. The 95 figure comes from the ones they slabbed AFTER 1998 when they first began putting the Mirco O on the labels. How many were slabbed between 1986 and 1998 is unknown. The same goes for NGC between 1987 and 1998.

 

Then there is something else. We know that at least one of the obverses for the counterfeit micro O was mated with a different reverse die. Possibly the other two were as well. So those coins would also be counterfeits. And were those other reverses matched with yet more obverses?? If these potential links aren't explored and the other dies identified then counterfeits from those will continue to be slabbed as genuine because at the moment, they are undetectable. So how many counterfeits from this guy are out there? This is why die variety and die state research is important.

Wow, that is great info Conder. I didn't realize that at least one of the Micro O obverses was mated to a different reverse die. This does make die variety and die state research much more interesting for me.

 

I wonder if anyone avoids Morgans because of this.

[Zoins]

It's deja vu all over again

How so? When was the first time?

[relicsncoins]

Wasn't there a St. Gaudens, I think it was the 1907 that was counterfeited in fairly large numbers? It went undetectable for quite some time until someone found a small mark that looked like an Omega symbol or something like that. They believed it was put on the coin as kind of a signature. I think the guy was never caught, imagine if he/she could do that what else he/she could've counterfieted.

 

JJ

[Zoins]

Wasn't there a St. Gaudens, I think it was the 1907 that was counterfeited in fairly large numbers? It went undetectable for quite some time until someone found a small mark that looked like an Omega symbol or something like that. They believed it was put on the coin as kind of a signature. I think the guy was never caught, imagine if he/she could do that what else he/she could've counterfieted.

How likely is it that he made some without the Omega symbol?

 

Does anyone avoid Saints because of this possibility?

[PerryHall]

The Omega Man counterfeit high relief Saints were less than perfect. There were several areas of tooling especially in the rays of the sun on the reverse. If they were undetected, it wasn't for long.

[MunkyMan95]

It's deja vu all over again

How so? When was the first time?

 

When GoldCoinLover... Excuse me, "stinkycheese1" wrote "I really hate this thread. It makes me not want to collect coins." it reminded me about the great debate we went through a couple months ago when he bought his first Saint. He was 100% convinced that the slab was a fake, and the coin was also counterfeit. Hence, deja vu all over again.

[Zoins]

The Omega Man counterfeit high relief Saints were less than perfect. There were several areas of tooling especially in the rays of the sun on the reverse. If they were undetected, it wasn't for long.

Good to know Perry. Thanks!

[MikeInFL]

Here's a good website that includes a low-res pic of the Omega countefeit. Also take a look at the link "Countefeit Coin Detection Primer" for some good info:

 

http://rg.ancients.info/bogos/

[lkenefic]

I believe the "Omega" counterfeiter also made $5 Indians as well which were much more convincing...except for the incused omega symbol of course!!

[Conder101]

With the Omega counterfeits you have to remember that it was discovered over 35 years ago before there were slabs and ANACS was the only certification service. Organized counterfeit detection was in its infancy. Dealers based their opinions mostly upon what they had personally seen. There were no file archives of photos of known genuine and counterfiet dies and diagnostics. These had to wait until they were assembled by ANACS, and at the time there a large number of counterfeit gold coins flowing from the middle east. At the time the Omegas were discovered it was considered to be a high class counterfeit. Today it is just mid-range quality with the aura of legend. The 1907 high relief double eagle is so well known that many people don't even know about the three dollar gold piece he did.

[PerryHall]

With the Omega counterfeits you have to remember that it was discovered over 35 years ago before there were slabs and ANACS was the only certification service. Organized counterfeit detection was in its infancy. Dealers based their opinions mostly upon what they had personally seen. There were no file archives of photos of known genuine and counterfiet dies and diagnostics. These had to wait until they were assembled by ANACS, and at the time there a large number of counterfeit gold coins flowing from the middle east. At the time the Omegas were discovered it was considered to be a high class counterfeit. Today it is just mid-range quality with the aura of legend. The 1907 high relief double eagle is so well known that many people don't even know about the three dollar gold piece he did.

 

For those that are interested, the Omega gold $3 is dated 1882 and the Omega is located inside the loop of the "R" in "LIBERTY".

[Zoins]

Did they ever figure out who did the Micro-O Morgans or other counterfeits? Were there any whistle blowers or are counterfeit coin operations generally pretty good at controlling leaks?

[PerryHall]

Did they ever figure out who did the Micro-O Morgans or other counterfeits? Were there any whistle blowers or are counterfeit coin operations generally pretty good at controlling leaks?

 

I've read that the consensus is that these were contemporary circulating counterfeits produced in the early 1900's. Makes sense since most examples are well circulated.

[Oldtrader3]

There is an article in this month's issue of ANA, Newmismatist magazine regarding a counterfeit $10 Indian. It includes diagnostics which should be of interest to everyone who buys gold.

[Zoins]

Informative Micro O post by Run Guth ATS:

 

Prior to announcing the new VAM attribution program, PCGS became concerned that the micro Os of 1896, 1900 and 1902 were contemporary counterfeits. No one to this point had enough high grade examples to compare in order to perform an adequate analysis. Independent of Leroy Van Allen, PCGS grader Mike Faraone asked silver dollar collectors Jeff Oxman and Lloyd Gabbert to send in as many of their micro Os as possible so that a comparison could be made. There were over 30 coins used in determining that the micro Os of 1899 were genuine and the micro Os of 1896, 1900 and 1902 were counterfeit. These results were published in Coin World prior to Leroy VanAllen's release on the subject. The reverse dies used on the counterfeits had many repeating depressions in the field. A depression is significant in that it would be a raised lump on the striking die in an area that is polished flat when new. Defects in the die such as die erosion, gouges and rust would leave raised areas on struck coins, not depressions.

 

The coins were contemporary counterfeits used to circulate during the early 1900s. In general, they were within tolerance by weight and silver content. It would cost the counterfeiter approximately 50 cents to produce his counterfeit as silver hovered around 60 cents per ounce during this period. We have seen the 1900-O round O silver dollars with the obverse die gouges that match the counterfeit 1900-O micro Os. These are genuine. The 1900-O shown in this thread is genuine. The counterfeiter used a coin struck from this die to manufacture his counterfeit die.

[carson city]

Anything is Possible----Albert Einstein

[Houston Investor]

A scary thought

[Conder101]

Prior to announcing the new VAM attribution program, PCGS became concerned that the micro Os of 1896, 1900 and 1902 were contemporary counterfeits. No one to this point had enough high grade examples to compare in order to perform an adequate analysis.

Considering they finally condemned tham as fakes some two years before they announced the VAM attribution program they must have been planning that VAM program for a LOOOOOONG time. ANd NGC condemned them as fakes something like seven years before PCGS did.