Counterfeit hypothetical

[physics-fan3.14]

I think zrlevin is right. And no, I would not want a counterfeit - as Mark said it is the history of the coin that is important. If that history is faked (whether it be who minted it, or where it was stored, or who handled it) then much of its interest is gone. Call me a romantic, but the unknown (and sometimes known) history of a coin is what gives them mystery and intrigue.

[Zoins]

My reasoning is that the only possible reason to have a counterfeit coin in your possession would be to defraud someone. No other reason possible. If you just wanted an exact replica of a coin you could not afford they are available for $24.99 anywhere. Therefore, as the hypothetical case is proffered, you know it is counterfeit, thus, you must wish to defraud someone to keep it in your collection.

I'm not following your reasoning. Who are you defrauding if you keep (not sell) a counterfeit in your collection?

[Zoins]

Call me a romantic, but the unknown (and sometimes known) history of a coin is what gives them mystery and intrigue.

I think this is very interesting behavior from coin collectors. Often times I'll see a coin collector write something like, "Washington might have used this coin" or "Lincoln might have used this coin" when the reality is that the probability of a former President using that coin is probably as high as that coin being an undetectable counterfeit.

 

I'm not condoning counterfeiting, just making an observation that some coin collectors seem to like hypothetical, romantic stories that have very little chance of being true. It's not very logical but that may be part of what makes the hobby attractive to so many.

[DirtyGoldMan]

1. No, I would not want one.

 

2. Yes, if I could not have a real one, I would not want one.

 

3. It would not matter to me one bit.

[jesbroken]

I am saying that you must have purchased this coin as no one gives away a coin, either real or counterfeit. If per the hypothetical case you knew it was counterfeit why would you buy it when you could get a replica coin to fill that space other than to defraud someone. How would it benefit you knowing it is not real? By filling a void in your collection it enhances its value which could have been done with a replca at a far lower cost, but would not have enhanced your sets value. Thus, an increase in value of your collection must then be your goal. That is my point.

[Zoins]

If per the hypothetical case you knew it was counterfeit

I don't read it that way at all. I asked Mike how you would hear about the existence of counterfeits and the scenario is some stranger comes to the boards and makes an announcement. You don't know this person, there is nowhere to buy counterfeits flagged as such and there are no diagnostics to identify these. Since you do not know the person giving the announcement and I presume that they aren't giving tours of the counterfeit production facility, you don't even know if the person is lying to manipulate the market or not.

 

It would be different if you were invited into a Circle of Trust and shown the counterfeit production facilities, but in the scenario here, it's just unsubstantiated rumor and hearsay. At least that's the way I interpret the hypothetical.

 

In this scenario, the only way to know whether any particular coin was a counterfeit is to do a destructive test. Are you going to start destroying your coins based on what some stranger says on a message board?

[MikeInFL]

If per the hypothetical case you knew it was counterfeit

I don't read it that way at all. I asked Mike how you would hear about the existence of counterfeits and the scenario says some stranger comes to the boards and makes an announcement. You don't know this person, there is nowhere to buy counterfeits flagged as such and there are no diagnostics to identify these. Since you do not know the person giving the announcement and I presume that they aren't giving tours of the counterfeit production facility, you don't even know if the person is lying to manipulate the market or not.

 

It would be different if you were invited into a Circle of Trust and shown the counterfeit production facilities, but in the scenario here, it's just unsubstantiated rumor and hearsay. At least that's the way I interpret the hypothetical.

 

While you are certainly entiteld to interpret it however you wish, I should point out that I also said that the counterfeit was detectable through destructive testing (i.e. you can find out, but the coin will be altered/destroyed in so doing) -- so therefore it is not hearsay, but the (hypothetical) facts are these coins are actually being made.

 

Have a nice Friday night...Mike

[Zoins]

While you are certainly entiteld to interpret it however you wish, I should point out that I also said that the counterfeit was detectable through destructive testing (i.e. you can find out, but the coin will be altered/destroyed in so doing) -- so therefore it is not hearsay, but the (hypothetical) facts are these coins are actually being made.

I believe I edited my reply to add the following while you were writing your post:

In this scenario, the only way to know whether any particular coin was a counterfeit is to do a destructive test. Are you going to start destroying your coins based on what some stranger says on a message board?

It is heresay until someone actually finds a counterfeit by destroying a coin. A message board is electronic media so it's not like the poster will be able to show you a destroyed counterfeit for proof. If these are counterfeits of rare, expensive coins, to prove what the stranger posts to the forum, someone is going to have to destroy one or a lot of their coins to try and find a counterfeit. Even if one is found, how many people are going to destroy every coin in their collection to look for possible counterfeits?

 

To clarify this hypothetical, how do you learn that the counterfeits can be discovered through destructive testing?

[MikeInFL]

]It is heresay until someone destroy a coin and finds one. Are people going to start doing this based on what someone writes on a message board? If these are counterfeits of rare, expensive coins, to prove what the stranger posts to the forum, someone is going to have to destroy one or a lot of their coins to try and find a counterfeit. Even if one is found, how many people are going to destroy every coin in their collection to look for possible counterfeits?

 

Zoins,

 

I think you are going a bit too far down the hypothetical path....

 

The story was concocted to give some insight how you, as a collector, would feel and react to finding out that your previously-undertsood-to-be real coin may be a counterfeit, not to poke holes in the logic behind the story.

 

Having a questioning nature myself, I can understand why you are where you are, but please try and focus on the issue at hand. That said, my next hypothetical will clearly need to be better thought out in order to get past you.

 

Enjoy your evening..Mike

[Zoins]

I think you are going a bit too far down the hypothetical path.... [...] That said, my next hypothetical will clearly need to be better thought out in order to get past you.

You are probably right. For me, the devil is in the details. To flesh out this hypothetical some more, how about this:

 

The counterfeiter anonymously sends a reproduction to Coin World in a legitimate PCGS slab. The slab is cracked in public and the coin is examined by numerous experts from PCGS, NGC and elsewhere. Every single expert independently concludes the coin is genuine. Then Coin World destroys the coin and it turns out to be counterfeit.

[jesbroken]

That's kind of the point. You don't know if your coin is real or counterfeit.

 

I apologize Zoins, I missed the above post by Mike, I thought you knew it was counterfeit. I do not know if any of my coins now are counterfeit-even the ones slabbed-for 100%. Thus, the whole case is academic and without a debateable point. I guess how you answer the three questions might be utilized to form an opinion as to one's personality traits, but otherwise meaningless. My answer to the three questions would remain the same.

[bsshog40]

#1 - No

#2 - Yes

#3 - I wouldn't and don't really care what people counterfiet. I would rather have a low quality/grade coin than have a fake to take it's place. It's knowing that you own a REAL part of american history than something that's trying to duplicate it. Would your best half want a Cubic Zirconia? or a real diamond? This answers my question on would I want a fake coin or a real coin!

[Zoins]

Would your best half want a Cubic Zirconia? or a real diamond? This answers my question on would I want a fake coin or a real coin!

That's actually not a good analogy since there are non-destructive methods to identify CZ which isn't the case here.

 

CZ is better compared to an Omega counterfeit which can be detected non-destructively.

[bsshog40]

Would your best half want a Cubic Zirconia? or a real diamond? This answers my question on would I want a fake coin or a real coin!

That's actually not a good analogy since there are non-destructive methods to identify CZ which isn't the case here.

 

CZ is better compared to an Omega counterfeit which can be detected non-destructively.

 

Well this is my analogy of deciding whether "I" would want fake or real.

[Zoins]

How about these questions:

 

4) If some stranger told you your most expensive coins might be counterfeit and the only way to tell was to destroy them, would you destroy your coins to check? Or would you live with the uncertainty that your coins might, or might not, be counterfeit?

 

5) When you went to sell the coins, would you disclose the fact a stranger made an anonymous blanket statement on message board saying your coins might be "non-destructively undetectable" counterfeits?

[bsshog40]

Well it's really hard to answer that question Zoins since I don't own anything that's even worth more than $100 for one coin. Don't think the threat of any of them would be counterfieted. But to answer hypothetically, I would post any coin I felt may be counterfiet here on the boards first, if it passed this board and 100% agreed it was geniune, then the thought of it being counterfiet would never enter my mind. If someone tried to convince me that a coin I had was, and it took destoying the coin to do this, then I would have to live with the coin regardless. I would still believe it was real due to me not being the one to have to prove that it's not. That's more like taking your dog to the vet so they can cut his head off and have him tested for rabies. Another analogy

[Zoins]

That's more like taking your dog to the vet so they can cut his head off and have him tested for rabies. Another analogy

Yep, that is a better analogy! Kind of graphic, but a better one.

[bsshog40]

That's more like taking your dog to the vet so they can cut his head off and have him tested for rabies. Another analogy

Yep, that is a better analogy! Kind of graphic, but a better one.

 

[ldhair]

1) Probably not. If it were a contemporary copy I would say yes.

2) Yes.

3) It would worry me a bit but so do many things in this crazy hobby.

[construct]

If the counterfeits are undetectable, you couldn't know there even were counterfeits unless there were an unexplained increase in the known population. Even then, there might be reasons to suspect that the coins were real unless the known population began to approach the mintage. And if you can't tell a fake from the real deal, the only way you would know your coin was real would be to know its pedigree going back to before the increase in known population.

 

If that were the case, I would keep my known genuine coin along with the receipt for it. I certainly wouldn't sell it, and I would hope that diagnostics would soon surface. I certainly would not buy one without establishing a chain of title.

 

I certainly wouldn't put any stock in the claims of a stranger on a message board.

[JKK]

If counterfeiters were able to perfectly recreate a coin and their work was practically undetectable.

 

1) Would you want one in your own collection?

 

2) Would you care if your example of this coin was real or counterfeit?

 

3) How would you feel if you owned a real example of the coin now being counterfeited?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to show the distinct questions being asked]

 

1: No. Defeats the whole purpose for me.

2: Yes. I would not want a counterfeit coin.

3: The same disgust I would feel that anyone counterfeited any rarity.

[just-john]

There are Tens of Billion's counterfeit 100 bills in the world and even some of the new ones are being counterfeited.Who's to say how many collectors have a counterfeit coin and not know even if their slabed.If a foreign goverment could make enought money off of counterfeit coins they would be every where.Or maybe they would be called a new discovered hoard.

There not enought money in it to bother for the major counterfiters.Now the artist craftmen

type one coin two coin guy would be hard to discover.

[bsshog40]

 

I certainly wouldn't put any stock in the claims of a stranger on a message board.

 

Soon you will not be a stranger on this message board!

[Zoins]

I would hope that diagnostics would soon surface.

That is a good point. One should plan for the possibility of non-destructive detection in the future.

[cpm9ball]

If counterfeiters were able to perfectly recreate a coin and their work was practically undetectable.

 

1) Would you want one in your own collection?

 

2) Would you care if your example of this coin was real or counterfeit?

 

3) How would you feel if you owned a real example of the coin now being counterfeited?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to show the distinct questions being asked]

 

1. No! End of discussion!

 

2. Yes! I'll use my Morgan collection as an example:

 

Though it would be nice to have a complete set, I know that I will likely never be able to afford the 1884-S, 1889-CC, 1892-S, 1893-S, 1895-O, 1896-O and 1901 in grades that would match the rest. I'll just have to live with that. But, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that another collector, Mr. X, was so intent on having a complete set that it didn't matter to him if some were counterfeit or not. Mr. X didn't even care about documenting the authenticity of his collection. Now, let's fast forward to a time 50 years later. Mr. X is no longer living, and his heirs haven't the slightest interest in numismatics. They break up the collection and sell it. You are now in your 90's, and you have passed on your love for numismatics to your son and he has done the same with his son. Then one day, your grandson, now in his forties, comes to visit and says, "Grandpa! Grandpa! Look what I just bought. It's an 1893-S in MS65. It was a bargain at $525,000." What would be running through your mind if you knew that this was one of Mr. X's coins?

 

3. I would be PI$$ED! How would you feel if you were leading in the Boston Marathon, and one-quarter mile from the finish line, someone jumps out of the crowd, beats you to the tape and is declared the winner? For many of us, putting together a desirable collection is a lifelong effort. In a way, I would feel cheated if someone were able to accomplish the same feat in a matter of days or weeks and my efforts were relegated to a mere footnote in numismatic circles.

 

Chris

[IGWT]

Judging by those who have chosen to answer and those who are conspicuously absent, I think it speaks volumes as to its pertinence, but will let others decide for themselves.

 

Or, maybe some of us are conspicuously absent because we're away on business. I was LouInFL this week. I just jumped onto the hotel computer; and, with my business concluded, I'm about to mosey over to the Sarasota Coin Show.

 

I would not collect in any area where it is impossible to distinguish real coins from fakes. And, if it weren't possible to know the areas in which the counterfeiting was occurring, I'd leave the hobby altogether. Adios.

[cpm9ball]

I'm about to mosey over to the Sarasota Coin Show.

 

Darn, Lou, if I had known you were going to be there, I would have made the 90-minute trip north just to visit with you. By any chance, do you plan to be at the Clearwater Show in July? Victor and his daughter, Hannah, may be here, and we have tentative plans to play pool with JT Stanton. The more the merrier!

 

Chris

[DirtyGoldMan]

Judging by those who have chosen to answer and those who are conspicuously absent, I think it speaks volumes as to its pertinence, but will let others decide for themselves.

 

Or, maybe some of us are conspicuously absent because we're away on business. I was LouInFL this week. I just jumped onto the hotel computer; and, with my business concluded, I'm about to mosey over to the Sarasota Coin Show.

 

I would not collect in any area where it is impossible to distinguish real coins from fakes. And, if it weren't possible to know the areas in which the counterfeiting was occurring, I'd leave the hobby altogether. Adios.

 

I agree with Lou.

[IGWT]

I'm about to mosey over to the Sarasota Coin Show.

 

Darn, Lou, if I had known you were going to be there, I would have made the 90-minute trip north just to visit with you. By any chance, do you plan to be at the Clearwater Show in July? Victor and his daughter, Hannah, may be here, and we have tentative plans to play pool with JT Stanton. The more the merrier!

 

Sorry, Chris. It was a last minute idea to go to the coin show. I would have let you know if I were on top of things.

 

As far as Florida in July . . . I'd melt!