Everyone Needs to "Doctor" Coins

[okbustchaser]

Yes, even those elderly people who want to buy a new roof from someone they have never heard of (and who no one else in town is familiar with either such as BBB) for a third of what a legitimate contractor would charge.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

They're not so lucky as to pay just a third of the normal price. Usually, it's full price or more. Too bad, so sad. Right? The lack of empathy astounds me.

 

If they are paying full price anyway then there is for DAM sure no reason to use a fly-by-nighter. A simple phone call to BBB, C of C, the police department,etc. would ruin the scam. Empathy??? Sure, I have it. I don't want anyone ripped off. I also belive in a strong helping of personal responsibility though.

[Bruceswar]

Yes, even those elderly people who want to buy a new roof from someone they have never heard of (and who no one else in town is familiar with either such as BBB) for a third of what a legitimate contractor would charge.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

They're not so lucky as to pay just a third of the normal price. Usually, it's full price or more. Too bad, so sad. Right? The lack of empathy astounds me.

 

If they are paying full price anyway then there is for DAM sure no reason to use a fly-by-nighter. A simple phone call to BBB, C of C, the police department,etc. would ruin the scam. Empathy??? Sure, I have it. I don't want anyone ripped off. I also belive in a strong helping of personal responsibility though.

 

I have to agree here.. Personal responsability is high on the list for me.

[Zoins]

I have to agree here.. Personal responsability is high on the list for me.

What about personal responsibility of the seller?

[chinook]

Directed at no one in particular, but I just hope that your grandmother is not taken by a scam.

[Bruceswar]

Directed at no one in particular, but I just hope that your grandmother is not taken by a scam.

 

My grandma took a frying pan to a door to door salesman... Does that count?

[gmarguli]

Directed at no one in particular, but I just hope that your grandmother is not taken by a scam.

 

My grandma took a frying pan to a door to door salesman... Does that count?

 

Depends. What type of coins was she ATing in the frying pan at the time?

[rrantique]

Directed at no one in particular, but I just hope that your grandmother is not taken by a scam.

 

My grandma took a frying pan to a door to door salesman... Does that count?

 

Depends. What type of coins was she ATing in the frying pan at the time?

 

[Bruceswar]

Directed at no one in particular, but I just hope that your grandmother is not taken by a scam.

 

My grandma took a frying pan to a door to door salesman... Does that count?

 

Depends. What type of coins was she ATing in the frying pan at the time?

 

None she tried to hit him over the head with it....

[IGWT]

Judging by the opinions expressed by many in this thread, I'm sure that lots of folks will get a chuckle out of what happened to the trusting, elderly people in this story.

[gmarguli]

Saying "No" and hanging up the phone would have prevented all of this.

 

Doing minor research would have prevented all of this.

[WinstonWare]

Lou, I think that's a little unfair. No one that I am aware of are using the tactics outlined in the story:

 

• using high-pressure sales tactics

 

• targeting the elderly

 

• selling coins with 100 percent markups as investments

 

• using religion to gain trust with customers

 

• fabricating stories about the origins of coins

 

• misrepresenting the value of coins

 

• making unauthorized charges to credit cards

 

[WinstonWare]

Greg's five minutes of happiness are up

[MikeInFL]

Isn't it convenient that Responsibility St. is one way in Marguliville?

 

I agree completely with personal responsibility, but where's the personal responsibility of the coin doctor? If a buyer is responsible for what he purchases, why isn't the one selling/doctoring the coins responsible for what they sell?

 

Why should fraud be OK in a hobby, but not when selling roof shingles or stocks? Does the moral responsibility of an individual change as the item being sold changes? At what point on the selling continium does fraud become justifiable?

 

If everyone in the world shared the same low moral compass as the OP, this world would be a terrible place to be. Luckily the vast majority of people in this world don't need to use secrecy and fraud to make a living, but instead try and make the world a better place through their vocation. Unfortunately, the parasites of our society will continue to live in the shadows sucking the blood of our hobby all the while blaming the hobbyists for their own stupidity rather than taking responsibility for and being honest about their own actions.

 

What a great lesson they must be teaching their children in dishonesty and self-interest...Mike

 

[IGWT]

Lou, I think that's a little unfair. No one that I am aware of are using the tactics outlined in the story

 

Winston, the discussion evolved to the point where people were making and defending statements like this:

 

The bottom line is that it is impossible to swindle an "honest man".

 

I disagree with that statement for many reasons, and I think the story that I linked (it was posted ATS) illustrates some of those reasons very well.

[WinstonWare]

Lou, I understand what you are saying and I agree for the most part. I just thought that there was a decided difference between doctoring a coin and selling it on ebay and the methods used in that article. That’s all I was trying to say.

[gmarguli]

Isn't it convenient that Responsibility St. is one way in Marguliville?

 

Actually it's a Cul-de-Sac where the person goes in circles to protect themselves and does not expect mommy to be there at all times.

 

 

I agree completely with personal responsibility, but where's the personal responsibility of the coin doctor? If a buyer is responsible for what he purchases, why isn't the one selling/doctoring the coins responsible for what they sell?

 

Does the personal responsibility of an individual change as the item being sold changes? At what point on the selling continium (sic) does personal irresponsibility become justifiable?

[IGWT]

Lou, I understand what you are saying and I agree for the most part. I just thought that there was a decided difference between doctoring a coin and selling it on ebay and the methods used in that article. That’s all I was trying to say.

 

There's also a decided similarity. Both use deceit to make a buck.

[MikeInFL]

Isn't it convenient that Responsibility St. is one way in Marguliville?

 

Actually it's a Cul-de-Sac where the person goes in circles to protect themselves and does not expect mommy to be there at all times.

 

Who said anything about mommy? I'm simply pointing out the hypocricy of your position -- responsibilty for the buyer, who's acting completely honestly, and responsibitiy for the seller, who's using deception to defraud.

 

I agree completely with personal responsibility, but where's the personal responsibility of the coin doctor? If a buyer is responsible for what he purchases, why isn't the one selling/doctoring the coins responsible for what they sell?

 

Does the personal responsibility of an individual change as the item being sold changes? At what point on the selling continium (sic) does personal irresponsibility become justifiable?

 

No, the personal responsibility of the individual remains the same -- be honest and forthright. Do not use deception to defraud -- and this goes for both the buyer and seller.

 

At no point on the selling continum does personal irresponsibilty become justifiable -- thank you for restating the point I was making.

 

Here's a hypothetical for you showing the idiocy of your logic... Suppose you doctored a coin and sold it to a hobbyist, the hobbyist gave you a forged check in payment? By your logic, it is the responsibility of the doctor and the one doing the forging is absolved of responsibility because the doctor should have been able to detect the forgery if he's going to take a check.

 

Again, isn't it convenient that Responsibilty St. is one way in Marguliville?

 

[edited for grammar]

[gmarguli]

I'm simply pointing out the hypocricy of your position -- responsibilty for the buyer, who's acting completely honestly, and responsibitiy for the seller, who's using deception to defraud.

 

Here is where your remedial level of thinking is deceiving you. You are assuming that there is deception and using that false assumption to back and promote your way of thinking. I don't blame you for this fallacy in logic. Many people are unable to reason logically and are blinded by a single point of view. It happens a lot today, especially in politics.

 

 

 

 

Here's a hypothetical for you showing the idiocy of your logic... Suppose you doctored a coin and sold it to a hobbyist, the hobbyist gave you a forged check in payment? By your logic, it is the responsibility of the doctor and the one doing the forger is absolved of responsibility because the doctor should have been able to detect the forgery if he's going to take a check.

 

I'm (stupidly) taking the risk that you're not too slow to understand this... In your hypothetical the buyer received his purchase. Due to his lack of education/knowledge/research/etc he may not have purchased exactly what he thought, but he still got his purchase. Had he done his homework, he'd have been better prepared for this purchase. The seller got nothing but fraud.

 

The buyer has the responsibility to educate themselves about their purchases. After all, it is their decision to make the purchase. At no point would it be reasonable to expect that the seller be an expert in check forgery. Sure, if it were forged in the name of Bill Gates and printed on a cocktail napkin, I'd blame the seller, but otherwise there should be no expectation that the seller be an expert in check forgery.

 

Common sense - which seems to be lacking in so many people today - dictates that certain people should have certain knowledge about things if they are going to involve themselves in certain situations. Buying a luxury item is very different than check forgery.

[IGWT]

I thought that Mike's example was a good one, and I still do. The collector got a bum coin. The dealer got a bum check.

 

The distinction that you try to draw -- the difficulty of detecting a forged check -- makes no sense. First, it can also be difficult to detect a doctored coin. Second, your reasoning would absolve incompetent doctors while condemning competent ones. Third, a "smart" dealer is aware that checks can be forged, and he should have accepted only cash. Under your own reasoning, the dealer is to blame for the bad check passed by the collector because the dealer didn't use common sense.

[gmarguli]

I thought that Mike's example was a good one, and I still do. The collector got a bum coin. The dealer got a bum check.

 

The coin still has the same value. The check has no value. Big difference.

 

The coin buyer trading the dealer comic books which turned out to have been pressed would be a good example.

[Oldtrader3]

This line of thought is rather convuluted thinking. Coin doctoring is a form of deception, which is by definition a form of theft, by deception. So, what's the issue again? Seems crystal clear, not AT'ed, to me.

[gmarguli]

Coin doctoring is a form of deception, which is by definition a form of theft, by deception. So, what's the issue again? Seems crystal clear, not AT'ed, to me.

 

Well, for starters: Coin doctoring is not a form of deception. Would you call a woman who applied make-up deceptive and therefore a fraud? A car that had its surfaces polished a fraud? A white Morgan dollar that was dipped?

[okbustchaser]

Judging by the opinions expressed by many in this thread, I'm sure that lots of folks will get a chuckle out of what happened to the trusting, elderly people in this story.

 

A chuckle? No, not at all. I truely do wish that these people could magically be made whole. I also think that this is a lot different case then a seller creating and then selling to a buyer exactly what the buyer is asking for--ie, a wildly toned--or the opposite case--a dipped and stripped white--coin.

 

But, by the same token I STILL think that anyone who invests his life savings in something about which he knows nothing (and is either unwilling or unable to learn about) is a fool who should take responsibility for his own foolishness--regardless of who is doing the selling or what is being sold. I do not state--nor have I ever stated--that the seller should be absolved of criminal acts, but I reinterate that

 

"Personal responsiblity starts with the person--not the courthouse."

[Oldtrader3]

This is somewhat OT, but I feel the need to respond to this line of posting.

 

Regarding article on trusting seniors. The reality is that elderly people are often easy marks for dishonest salesman who "befriend" them and then fleece them. I lived in a retirement home for 2-1/2 years while recovering from a serious illness that nearly killed me. During that period, I heard several stories from and about older, retired people who had money stolen through misrepresentation.

 

Most of these people are mostly elderly, lonely and very vulnerable. They need friends and are no longer able to protect themselves. Their mental faculties may be impaired or they may just not have relatives that care enough about them to protect them. Certainly, they are not stupid and do not deserve to be taken advantage of. My mother was fleeced by a sleazy Florida stockbroker for $250,000.00 while she had Alzheimer's disease. Does this make it her at fault? If there was fault, it may be that we children all lived too far away to keep track her when she could no longer take care of herself. By the time I got her into a Retirement Home, it was too late. The money was gone!

 

I hope to God that this does not happen to me, my family or even to you Greg. There should be a special place in hxll for people who earn their living by deceiving elderly people. All of us may live to be elderly some day and hopefully will have relatives that care enough about us to prevent this from happening. A Caveat Emptor attitude when fraud is involved is nonsense and does not hold water!

[WinstonWare]

Why are you guys suggesting that Greg is “fleecing” old folks? To my knowledge Greg sells some coins on ebay and others at shows. I don’t know for a fact, but I would bet that he does not sell coins at retirement homes nor does he call retirement homes searching for buyers.

[MAULEMALL]

Why are you guys suggesting that Greg is “fleecing” old folks? To my knowledge Greg sells some coins on ebay and others at shows. I don’t know for a fact, but I would bet that he does not sell coins at retirement homes nor does he call retirement homes searching for buyers.

It doesn't matter..There are Tons of people (Well Known And Highly respected on this board) who sell Blue Indians and dipped out silver and all we are ever given is "Greg Is Bad",,,It's the same clique mentality that is ATS and it's not just boring, It's the dishonest and morally corrupt attitude by the biggest whiners that makes them such a joke..

 

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Maybe I was not clear, but I was not implying that Greg is fleecing old folks or anyone else. I was criticising the Caveat Emptor attitude that: only people who deserve it are suckers or get fleeced. In particular, pertaining to the article attached to the post by Okbustchaser. I don't know Greg and can not speak on his ethics, only his incredible lack of sensitivity sometimes.

[Oldtrader3]

Maulemall, I hope that you are not calling me a whiner just because I took exception to Greg's position on "suckers"?

[MikeInFL]

I'm simply pointing out the hypocricy of your position -- responsibilty for the buyer, who's acting completely honestly, and responsibitiy for the seller, who's using deception to defraud.

 

Here is where your remedial level of thinking is deceiving you. You are assuming that there is deception and using that false assumption to back and promote your way of thinking. I don't blame you for this fallacy in logic. Many people are unable to reason logically and are blinded by a single point of view. It happens a lot today, especially in politics.

 

No deception, eh? Tell me, Greg, when you sell self-doctored coins on eBay, do you inform the purchasers of what you did to the coin, or do you simply decieve by omission? Do you sell your coins raw, or do you get them slabbed as to reinforce the deception? Keep telling yourself you're not deceiving anyone...just like the telemarketer kept telling himself.

 

The only one blinded by a single point of view is you -- trying continuously to justify your deceitful acts by shifting the blame to those being taken advantage of. I, on the other hand, see the responsibility of both parties. Which is the more one-sided perspective?

 

And please stop with the patronizing tone, we all know you think you're smarter than everyone else -- it's your lack of morals and the hypocricy of your logic, not my lack of intelligence, that is the topic of discussion.

 

Now, two very personal and pointed questions for you Greg:

 

#1 -- Do your Mommy and Daddy know the details of your money making scheme?

#2 -- How proud are they of their son's actions?

 

This dummy, at least, will understand if you choose not to answer:..Mike