Everyone Needs to "Doctor" Coins

[MikeInFL]

I thought that Mike's example was a good one, and I still do. The collector got a bum coin. The dealer got a bum check.

 

The coin still has the same value. The check has no value. Big difference.

 

The coin buyer trading the dealer comic books which turned out to have been pressed would be a good example.

 

So a fraud is a fraud only if there's no residual value? Again, very convenient.

 

The bottom line is both were defrauded, and both didn't do the homework they should have. The buyer in knowing exactly what he was buying, and the seller knowing exactly what he was accepting as payment. After all, the seller could have called the bank and found out if the check was good, or could have accepted cash only, but they made the decision to accept the check, and should accept the personal responsibility for their own actions.

 

But our little thought experiment erodes the foundation of the house of hypocrisy that coin doctors live in, so this time personal responsibility doesn't apply. Very convenient.

 

You see, Greg, you can't have it both ways. Personal responsibility is a two way street, but you are so blinded by the need to justify your morals (sic) that you can't see it. That's OK, though, I don't blame you. Many people are unable to reason logically and are blinded by a single point of view...Mike

 

 

[gmarguli]

Don't misunderstand me, it's not that I don't believe these people took advantage of seniors. Based on the little I read, they highly likely did.

 

In my job (insurance industry) I come into contact with a lot of seniors. Most times when I get the call the senior has a problem and run into a brick wall trying to get help. I see a significant amount of them have been taken advantage of. I go out of my way to help protect them. I've forwarded complaints to the appropriate authorities for them to investigate for criminal charges. I've gotten some doctors thrown out of their insurance groups. On numerous occasions I've gotten significant money refunded to seniors that I felt were taken advantage of. I've literally threatened some of the doctors into making the situation right.

 

I see how they are treated by many people. It's rather surprising the gall some people have when taking advantage of seniors and their attitudes toward the seniors. Usually because they won't or don't know how to fight back. I'd fully support the execution of people who make their living scamming the incapable elderly.

 

That is totally different from what some whiners are talking about in this thread. They're talking about educated, thinking people who purchased items for their hobby and have buyers remorse because they didn't do their homework. That's quite different from the high pressure sales these seniors allegedly faced.

 

You mention your mother lost $250,000 to a scam and she had Alzheimer's disease. That is truly awful and based only on that very limited amount of information I have sympathy for her situation. Now change your "mother who has Alzheimer's disease" to a "fully functioning person who is educated and has all their faculties and didn't do their homework" and I just don't have that same sympathy.

 

[gmarguli]

Tell me, Greg, when you sell self-doctored coins on eBay, do you inform the purchasers of what you did to the coin, or do you simply decieve by omission?

 

Do I inform the buyers that I use industry acceptable chemicals to clean them? No. I also don't inform them that I submit proofs in PVC free flips, but mint state coins in the cheaper PVC flips. Nor do I inform them that I frequently have multiple examples of the coins I'm selling for sale. Nor do I....

 

I will say that one of my better buyers was just asking me about what I use on the coins and I gave full details. Just because I don't advertise things doesn't mean I hide them. I'm extremely open about the details of this industry.

 

 

Do you sell your coins raw, or do you get them slabbed as to reinforce the deception?

 

Come on Mike, you're not that stupid. Well, maybe you are. I slab the coins because the cost of slabbing is less than the added value.

 

 

#1 -- Do your Mommy and Daddy know the details of your money making scheme?

 

Do they know I buy and sell coins? Yes. Do I bore them with more details? No. Why would I? Unlike so many people on these forums, I don't think they would care for details about a hobby they know little about.

 

#2 -- How proud are they of their son's actions?

 

I'm sure they're thrilled that I can make more in coins in a month than many people make in a year.

[MikeInFL]

Tell me, Greg, when you sell self-doctored coins on eBay, do you inform the purchasers of what you did to the coin, or do you simply decieve by omission?

 

Do I inform the buyers that I use industry acceptable chemicals to clean them? No. I also don't inform them that I submit proofs in PVC free flips, but mint state coins in the cheaper PVC flips. Nor do I inform them that I frequently have multiple examples of the coins I'm selling for sale. Nor do I....

 

I will say that one of my better buyers was just asking me about what I use on the coins and I gave full details. Just because I don't advertise things doesn't mean I hide them. I'm extremely open about the details of this industry.

If you are so open about the details, why not share the details of what was done to your coins before you sell them? Put a sticker on the slab that says "dull 63 now blue toned 65"?

 

Even this dullard knows the answer to that -- you won't because your profits would fall if the truth were made known. So you instead lie by omission and blame the buyer for their ignorance, all the while absolving yourself of doing the right thing.

 

But here's a chance to redeem yourself... If you're so open about the details of this industry, why not use your nefarious knowledge and post examples of all types of doctoring you know about and explain how they were done for all to see and learn from, as you've done in the past?

 

 

Just think of all the stupid people bereft of personal responsibilty you could help.

 

 

#1 -- Do your Mommy and Daddy know the details of your money making scheme?

 

Do they know I buy and sell coins? Yes. Do I bore them with more details? No. Why would I? Unlike so many people on these forums, I don't think they would care for details about a hobby they know little about.

 

#2 -- How proud are they of their son's actions?

 

I'm sure they're thrilled that I can make more in coins in a month than many people make in a year.

Bore them with the details? Again, very convenient answer.

 

I'm sure they would love to know how their son makes more in a month than most people do in a year.

 

Or could it be that Mommy and Daddy wouldn't approve of what little Greg does for fun and profit?

 

Please fill them in on the details next time you talk to them, and report back their response, or even better, send them a link to this thread. I'll be waiting with baited breath for their response...Mike

 

 

[okbustchaser]

Maybe I was not clear, but I was not implying that Greg is fleecing old folks or anyone else. I was criticising the Caveat Emptor attitude that: only people who deserve it are suckers or get fleeced. In particular, pertaining to the article attached to the post by Okbustchaser. I don't know Greg and can not speak on his ethics, only his incredible lack of sensitivity sometimes.

 

Oldtrader3, I really resent the words you are trying to put into my mouth. NEVER have I said that anyone who gets cheated was a sucker who deserved to get fleeced. I stated that people who invest their life savings into anything without doing the least amount of due process are foolish. Do I think they deserve to be cheated? No, but if competent to make that decision then I think that it should be their decision to make. If, on the other hand, they are not competent to make those decisions then perhaps someone else needs to be making financial decisions for them. Harsh words, I know, but there is no way in Hades that I would have allowed my Alzheimer stricken mother to make such a decision. It was hard for me to accept, but the time came (as it may come to many of you) when I had to be the adult.

 

I have stated that competent people who are in such a hurry to put one over on the seller that they will gladly pay $5000.00 for a coin in a NNC (just to pick one of the no-name companies) simply because a guide says that it is a $50,000.00 coin in that particular grade from PCGS that they never stop to wonder why they are able to buy it for that price need to take responsility for their OWN GREED.

 

I have stated that competent people who are willing to spend 100s and/or 1000s of dollars on coins simply because they are pretty without doing any research as to why they are so pretty need to take personal responsiblity for their choices.

 

This does not mean that I think dealers who commit fraud bear no responsiblity. Nor, have I ever said so. Criminal acts should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.

 

"Caveat Emptor"??? No, but personal responsibilty, YES!

[Oldtrader3]

Okbustchaser, I was referring to the article that you referenced. I did not intend to put words in your mouth or offend you.

 

My mother was in deep denial about her Alzheimer's disease and never informed any of her children. Her symptoms were not readily apparent for quite some time. It is not atypical for seniors who have Alheimer's to deny their mental deterioration symptoms and in some cases turn on their children and/or caregivers. She was very self-contained and became more ornery as the disease advanced which contributed to her problems.

 

She lived in Florida, I lived in Salt Lake City temporarily, then California and my siblings were in Massachusetts, Maine and London, England. I found out about her Alheimer's when her Florida Neurologist finally got my address and wrote me. He told me that her condition was quite advanced and deteriorating rapidly, partially, because she would not take the medication required to slow the disease. By the time we (her children) got involved and I moved her to a nursing home, her money was gone! She still denied that there was anything wrong with her until she died 3 years later.

 

We children weren't fools. It was a situation of self-denial on her part and distance on our part, plus not recognizing the symptoms until it was in advanced stages. I would guess that this same scenario has played out with many people who have parents who are ill and secretive about their illness. I paid a large portion of her care and support during the last years of her life.