Pricing: 1864 Bronze Indian 1c NGC PF66 BN

[chinook]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

Thank you. I had heard the same about the use of those two products together.

 

Greg, the ball is in your court now.

Mark, which one looks better to you?

 

Greg, the first one looks much better to me.

 

 

Greg, just rinse it under some warm water and it will all wash away. Try again. Surely you can do much better.

[MarkFeld]

Greg, the first one looks much better to me.

 

Assuming it (#2) gets in a PCGS slab, would you be willing to sell it?

Not if I strongly suspected or knew it had been treated with MS70. I have passed on many PCGS and NGC copper coins during the past several months for the same reason. That doesn't mean I haven't or won't inadvertently end up with one, but I make an effort to avoid them.

[texasrichard]

Greg,

 

Thanks for answering my questions and while I don't know you I have a sense you were being sincere.

 

While a little off topic maybe you can help me learn something else:

 

You might remember I'm putting together a set of rim toned commems. I'm still really new at this and I'd like to know if you feel that those 5 or 6 rim toned commems you sold a couple of months ago had been messed with in any way. I was unsuccesful in winning any of your but I did try. The "look" those had in my mind was not something that happened any other way than through a long time in an album or something. Since I've been paying way above sheet for others with the same look I guess I'm wondering if I'm getting what I think I am?

 

Thanks,

Richard

[EZ_E]

I think that as I mature in the hobby then I lean more strongly to an "original looking" piece. If your post restoration coin had brown, clear mirrors then I'd say that it was a successful restoration. But, as it is, I think that it was a dismal disaster.

 

But, if some knucklehead finds it irresistable and will fork out a couple of thousand for it then mission accomplished. Profit made. Disaster avoided....except for the coin.

[gmarguli]

Greg, the first one looks much better to me.

 

Assuming it (#2) gets in a PCGS slab, would you be willing to sell it?

Not if I strongly suspected or knew it had been treated with MS70. I have passed on many PCGS and NGC copper coins during the past several months for the same reason. That doesn't mean I haven't or won't inadvertently end up with one, but I make an effort to avoid them.

 

Then you'll miss out on some newly made monsters like #2. Stunning coin. Slap a Prosky hoard reference into your sales pitch and you'll be legitimate!

 

BTW, they aren't the same coin. People just assumed that they were. And people just assumed I was going to try and turn the coin blue. Coin #2 is a "With L" variety and sold a few years back for over 50K. Mintage 20. It's in a PCGS slab. I think the coin is clearly worked. I'm not positive, but I believe it was recently handled by a dealer who posts on the PCGS forums.

 

I noticed that the thread ATS has been picking up steam. And I noticed that Laura was taking some shots at me on the PCGS forums. Here is what she posted: "What a chump. I extremely dislike these moro[/i]ns who brag. It'so obvious in his mind his actions are justified.

 

If he does anything to that coin, its a crime-nothing needs to be done to it.

 

Note: We could NOT get a better image of the coin. It was a matter of the lighting. We tried everything!"

 

Is that how you treat a customer? And is this the same Laura that made the statement that "Colored PR Indians are so incredibly beautiful...." and also paid $6,325 for this coin which has a value of $300 + of MS70 + $30 of plastic?

 

And I wasn't going to post this, but since she feels I'm a moro[/i]n, I'll post my opinion of the coin in hand. It clearly had a bath before it got to me and it still needs another bath. While the mirrors are strong, they are covered in a lot of oxidation. There is also several PVC (?) spots on the reverse around the wreath.

 

On the reverse it appears that a carbon spot has been scraped away. There are a bunch of light scratches in the surface where a spot was and still partially is. Without this, I think the coin is a strong PF66 and I would not hesitate to crack it out and clean it. However, with this small, yet noticeable and distracting problem, I will not take the risk of a bodybag or severe downgrade.

 

The highlighted area is where the work was done. The shiny area is the scrapes and you can see the carbon spot that someone tried to remove.

 

 

As for what to do with the coin now? All I can say is thank god I didn't buy the coin from a wannabe!

[gmarguli]

You might remember I'm putting together a set of rim toned commems. I'm still really new at this and I'd like to know if you feel that those 5 or 6 rim toned commems you sold a couple of months ago had been messed with in any way. I was unsuccesful in winning any of your but I did try. The "look" those had in my mind was not something that happened any other way than through a long time in an album or something. Since I've been paying way above sheet for others with the same look I guess I'm wondering if I'm getting what I think I am?

 

I do not know for sure if the coins were original. I purchased most of them already in slabs. Unlike many in this hobby, I've seen enough to know you should never be surprised what can be done to a piece of metal.

 

I think that two of them might have had some help. One resembled a bunch that came on to the market many years ago and got slabbed, but no longer get slabbed. The other was just a little too off for me to think it was real.

[Zoins]

I'll post my opinion of the coin in hand. It clearly had a bath before it got to me and it still needs another bath. While the mirrors are strong, they are covered in a lot of oxidation. There is also several PVC (?) spots on the reverse around the wreath.

 

On the reverse it appears that a carbon spot has been scraped away. There are a bunch of light scratches in the surface where a spot was and still partially is. Without this, I think the coin is a strong PF66 and I would not hesitate to crack it out and clean it. However, with this small, yet noticeable and distracting problem, I will not take the risk of a bodybag or severe downgrade.

 

The highlighted area is where the work was done. The shiny area is the scrapes and you can see the carbon spot that someone tried to remove.

Nice analysis and post. Good luck with the coin.

I've seen enough to know you should never be surprised what can be done to a piece of metal.

Good advice to follow, even when buying slabbed from a non-wannabe.

[MAULEMALL]

BTW, they aren't the same coin. People just assumed that they were. And people just assumed I was going to try and turn the coin blue. Coin #2 is a "With L" variety and sold a few years back for over 50K. Mintage 20. It's in a PCGS slab. I think the coin is clearly worked. I'm not positive, but I believe it was recently handled by a dealer who posts on the PCGS forums.

[Zoins]

BTW, they aren't the same coin. People just assumed that they were. And people just assumed I was going to try and turn the coin blue. Coin #2 is a "With L" variety and sold a few years back for over 50K. Mintage 20. It's in a PCGS slab. I think the coin is clearly worked. I'm not positive, but I believe it was recently handled by a dealer who posts on the PCGS forums.

What a great punch line!

[MAULEMALL]

BTW, they aren't the same coin. People just assumed that they were. And people just assumed I was going to try and turn the coin blue. Coin #2 is a "With L" variety and sold a few years back for over 50K. Mintage 20. It's in a PCGS slab. I think the coin is clearly worked. I'm not positive, but I believe it was recently handled by a dealer who posts on the PCGS forums.

What a great punch line!

Dude this is WAYYY better than dinner theater,,,Sorry about the coin Greg...You gonna try and flip it,Or are you going to let Laura have it?

[gmarguli]

You gonna try and flip it,Or are you going to let Laura have it?

 

Not sure yet. Basically have 3 choices:

 

1) Return it to Legend. They have a 3% restocking fee, but I'm positive that would be waived for one of her moronic customers.

 

2) Send it to NGC to see if they agree with my assessment of spot removal. If so, they can buy it off the market or say market acceptable.

 

3) Sell it.

[MAULEMALL]

You gonna try and flip it,Or are you going to let Laura have it?

 

1) Return it to Legend. They have a 3% restocking fee, but I'm positive that would be waived for one of her moronic customers.

 

This would be My vote...Let her screech to NGC. She's Not a Wanna be ya Know..I'm sure she would love the chance to make it right

[MarkFeld]

I'd like to make a few comments which are at least slightly off topic, at least from the original subject of this thread:

 

1) As much as I dislike Greg's attitude and what he does to certain coins, I really appreciate his candidness. His comments, which are generally quite articulate, open and informative, allow for good discussion and debate of this topic. And that presents an excellent opportunity for people to learn. They are then free to form their own informed opinions.

 

2) There are many others who do more doctoring to more coins and of greater value, by far, than Greg does - it's just that they won't admit it publicly. He is probably a very small fish in the coin doctoring ocean. Please don't lose sight of that.

 

2) As much as it bothers me that NGC (and other grading companies, including PCGS) still apparently grade copper coins which have been treated with MS70 and/or other substances which can change a coin's color, I give NGC credit for allowing these discussions and criticisms on their forum.

 

As some of you know, I had started what turned out to be a very lengthy thread on the PCGS forum about copper, MS70, artificial color, etc. There were many excellent and highly informed posts written in response, but it appears that someone at PCGS deleted the entire thread. With it went a lot of good information from which collectors could have learned and benefited.

[michael]

2) As much as it bothers me that NGC (and other grading companies, including PCGS) still apparently grade copper coins which have been treated with MS70 and/or other substances which can change a coin's color, I give NGC credit for allowing these discussions and criticisms on their forum.

 

As some of you know, I had started what turned out to be a very lengthy thread on the PCGS forum about copper, MS70, artificial color, etc. There were many excellent and highly informed posts written in response, but it appears that someone at PCGS deleted the entire thread. With it went a lot of good information from which collectors could have learned and benefited.

[IGWT]

1) As much as I dislike Greg's attitude and what he does to certain coins, I really appreciate his candidness. His comments, which are generally quite articulate, open and informative, allow for good discussion and debate of this topic. And that presents an excellent opportunity for people to learn. They are then free to form their own informed opinions.

 

These statements by Mark express some of my own thoughts. Folks have misinterpreted my participation in this thread -- as well as other threads on the subject -- as a show of support for (or ambivalence towards) Greg's work on coins. All I ever really do is ask questions, and I'm not sure how my questions are turned into anything other than what they are.

[MarkFeld]

1) As much as I dislike Greg's attitude and what he does to certain coins, I really appreciate his candidness. His comments, which are generally quite articulate, open and informative, allow for good discussion and debate of this topic. And that presents an excellent opportunity for people to learn. They are then free to form their own informed opinions.

 

These statements by Mark express some of my own thoughts. Folks have misinterpreted my participation in this thread -- as well as other threads on the subject -- as a show of support for (or ambivalence towards) Greg's work on coins. All I ever really do is ask questions, and I'm not sure how my questions are turned into anything other than what they are.

I believe that some people might mistakenly take one's having a gentlemanly conversation or debate with Greg as ambivalence/indifference towards, or tacit acceptance of his activities. In other words, either pulverize him or you must think what he's doing is OK. I prefer to encourage him to speak out and inform us.

[Boss-migration]

Mark,

I know this is an old post, but what is on that list. I use mineral oil, a rose thorn, and olive oil (occassionaly). Acetone works for certain conditions. I have used Verdigone with decent success. What can you add?

Thanks Boss