PVC Holders - 60 Pocket Coin Wallet

[JakeBlues2-migration]

Hello!

 

I am new to the NGC board, and relatively new back to the world of coin collecting. I collected pennies and nickels when I was younger, and recently got back into it. My tastes are a little more expensive than when I was 9 years old however :-).

 

I have a quick PVC related question. I would like to use a coin wallet album style holder for gold bullion coins and semi-numismatics to keep in a safety deposit box. I realize that condition of these coins is not a major contributor to value, but I would still like to keep them looking nice. I bought an 60-pocket 5x7 HE Harris album, and am currently using non-PVC flips to hold the coins inside the pockets. Recently, I found out that the pockets themselves have PVC, even though the flips I am using do not. Will the presence of PVC, even if not touching the physical coin, haze or damage my coins over the long term? If so, who makes an album like this without PVC? I saw the "SafeT" album, but have had 2 vendors tell me it is PVC, and 2 others tell me it is not pvc. I also saw one at www.coinholder.com that is mylar, but never heard of "CoinHolder", and I'd rather the 7" long album to the 11" long album.

 

Any help you could provide would be appreciated!

Look forward to reading more posts and getting myself back into the hobby more!

 

JakeBlues2

[Oldtrader3]

If the coins are not touching the PVC, they probably will not form the undesirable verdigris coating. However, another problem with PVC (unless it is stabilized) is the release of chlorine ions. These chlorine ions can mix with atmospheric water and form dilute sulfuric acid which will damage coin surfaces. I would stay away from anything with PVC for long term storage.

[TomB]

For long-term storage I would not use the HE Harris album that is made up of PVC, largely for the reason that has already been given to you. The release of chlorine gas over time will form dilute hydrochloric acid microdroplets that can attack the surfaces of your coins even if they are not in contact with a PVC surface.

 

Saf-T-Flips are, by definition, flips made without PVC, therefore, if Saf-T-Flips makes an album I would definitely think it to be PVC-free. You may want to look them up on the web and send them an email to confirm this. In general, the more brittle and less supple the plastic material, the more likely that it is PVC-free.

 

Since bank vaults tend to have a slightly elevated relative humidity to keep paper from decomposing, you will have to worry about any PVC much more than you would if you were storing your coins at home. Keep a dessicant in your safe deposit box and change it regularly. Good luck.

[JakeBlues2-migration]

I don't know if the "SafeT" album is made by the people who make Saf-T-Flips. Perhaps it's a knockoff using the same name?

 

Thanks for the PVC info. Has anybody heard of this site coinholder.com and know if their stuff is any good?

[Leothelion]

Hi

Here's what I do. There's a way to test for PVC.

You will need the following items.

A propane torch.

A copper wire.

Light the torch, low flame and clean burn the properties from the wire. This only takes a few seconds.

Next, let wire cool and add any tiny piece of the plastic you want to test.

This step is not easy as it's somewhat difficult to attach the piece to the wire.

I have let the material melt onto the wire is helpful.

What you want to see is if the material being tested will cause the flame to turn green. A green flame is evidence the material contains PVC. A green flame that lasts 2-3 seconds contains alot of PVC. I have found that most materials contain some amounts of PVC. A quick, split second of a green flame will show this. Several testings of the same material may be needed to be sure. Whether a material with the smallest amount of PVC would eventually harm your coins I'm not certain. You youngsters, be sure to have an adult help you with this testing or ask around for advice (like this thread) or the manufacturer.

 

Leo

[TomB]

What you want to see is if the material being tested will cause the flame to turn green. A green flame is evidence the material contains PVC. A green flame that lasts 2-3 seconds contains alot of PVC. I have found that most materials contain some amounts of PVC. A quick, split second of a green flame will show this. Several testings of the same material may be needed to be sure. Whether a material with the smallest amount of PVC would eventually harm your coins I'm not certain. You youngsters, be sure to have an adult help you with this testing or ask around for advice (like this thread) or the manufacturer.

 

Let me just clarify something written in the previous statement; a green flame is indicative of chloride ions and this does not necessarily have to come from PVC. It could come from table salt. That is all the green flame will tell you.

[Leothelion]

The test was given in a Numismatic News or Coin World, can't remember which.

 

Leo

[TomB]

That's okay. I'm just telling you what the test is measuring. It isn't measuring PVC, it's measuring chloride ions.

[Leothelion]

That's okay. I'm just telling you what the test is measuring. It isn't measuring PVC, it's measuring chloride ions.

 

Which is salt....correct? Then here is something Tom you might get a kick out of.

 

Leo

[TomB]

Which is salt correct?

I don't understand what you are asking at all in that question, so, could you please re-state it?

 

I read the link and did get a kick out of it since I am one of the people responding with an answer for the question. Also, Conder101's answer is exactly what I have writing in this thread. That is, the flame color indicates specifically chloride ions, and not PVC. It just so happens that PVC stands for polyvinyl chloride and so the flame turns green because of the chloride ions in PVC. However, as I have already written, the flame would also turn green if you dipped it in table salt first since table salt is sodium chloride. It would also likely turn green if you were sweating and held the tip of the wire while it were cool because you would leave sweat drops containing salt on the wire.

[Leothelion]

Hi Tom

Sorry for the delay in respnses, I've been in and out of the house most of the day.

My last response was to the chloride ions, if they exist in both salt and the PVC.

Since the sodium chloride is the cause of the green flame. Is salt a part of the make up of PVC. If that is true then would the elimination of salt or chloride ions from the plastic change the formula for PVC. Or would PVC be PVC without the chloride ions? What your suggesting is that they are not, PVC is separate from the ions.

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Bad news folks! Not only will PVC ruin your coins, the stuff could also mess up your sex life .

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

And here is an even more alarming report .

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Here's what I (may) have learned so far.

 

The chemicals known as phthalates, which are incorporated into PVC to make it softer and more pliable,

 

Phthalates are a class of widely used industrial compounds known technically as dialkyl or alkyl aryl esters of 1,2-benzenedicarboxylic acid.

 

And dialkyl is a form of salt from what I've read in the definition of the word.

 

This all proves that Tom is right! The instructions I gave is not a test for PVC but a test for phthalates and so on. I think everyone is clear on this matter for now.

 

Just buy the stiff plastic and not the soft stuff.

 

Leo

[TomB]

I'll try to answer your questions since I believe I now have a much better idea of what you are getting at.

 

My last response was to the chloride ions, if they exist in both salt and the PVC.

What you have just written is a true statement, both PVC and table salt contain chlorine and, as such, will have chloride ions in them.

 

Since the sodium chloride is the cause of the green flame.

Technically, this statement is actually correct and incorrect as you have written it because you use the term sodium chloride instead of simply chloride ions or chlorine. Sodium chloride is table salt. It is the chloride ion part of sodium chloride that causes the green flame.

 

Is salt a part of the make up of PVC.

This is an excellent question and the answer is a resounding no.

 

If that is true then would the elimination of salt or chloride ions from the plastic change the formula for PVC.

This is another excellent question and the answer to this is that if you were to eliminate the chloride ions from PVC then you would no longer have PVC. PVC is really a derivative of vinyl and if you were to replace the chloride ion in PVC with something else you would have another member of the vinyl family, which most likely would not have the same plastic properties of PVC and would likely be useless within numismatics.

 

Or would PVC be PVC without the chloride ions?

No. See above.

 

What your suggesting is that they are not, PVC is separate from the ions.

I'm not clear on what this last statement is meant to get at.

 

I hope this helped!

[Oldtrader3]

(Ter)phthlates are a group of plastic resins and monomers. Some of these alloys are used to make contact lenses. They are used to soften the PVC, but they are not the chlorides used to convert Polyvinyl monomer into PVC. They are an additive. PVC was originally polymerized in Germany by reacting acetylene gas with hydrochloric acid. My guess is that PVC is still made with hydrochloric acid and polyvinyl monomer. (Edited) I believe that this reaction would release H2, which when burned will make H2O.