Pioneer gold: coins or tokens?

[Zoins]

I really like the history behind pioneer gold but I've been wondering if these are legal tender coins or if they are better classified as tokens?

[jesbroken]

As the U.S. Govt was in no way involved nor approved the coin issues my guess would be that the proper terminology will have to remain "private coinage".

Dictionary.com defines coin as a piece of metal stamped and issued by the authority of a government for use as money

It defines token as memento, souvenir or keepsake.

It defines a token coin as a stamped piece of metal, issued as a limited medium of exchange, as for bus fares, at a nominal value much greater than its commodity value.

So maybe both-one must use token coin as it was not issued by a government but by private enterprise.

Just my opinion.

Jim

[AegisIII]

It's a tough one. I've had the same question myself, and have asked it on that other board.

 

They're non-governmental issued and circulated as money, which suggests they are tokens. The gold/precious metal aspect doesn't seem to rule this out; check out lot 51723 in Heritage's January 2007 world coin auction for a British gold token self-declared as such.

 

They're normally called coins, which suggests they are coins.

 

I lean towards "coins" for the reason stated above.

[Zoins]

I think I'm leaning to classifying them as tokens in the numismatic sense. Dictionary.com's definition of token seems to cover numismatic medals as well as many non-numismatic items so it may be too general. I think "token coin" is somewhat redundant when speaking strictly in the area of numismatics.

 

It seems that they are privately-issued and accepted at multiple-venues. If I classified pioneer gold as "coins" then, to be consistent, I think I would have to classify all other privately-issued multiple-venue items as coins as well which I'm reluctant to do. One example would be Conder Tokens and another could be Maui Trade Dollars.

[michael]

pioneer terrotirial gold are most definately coins and circulated as such in the territories

many many years ago

 

after the territories becoame states in the federal union

they still circulated and were/are accepted at par

 

now worth more than par

 

and think about it .......for example take the clark gruber territorials this mint was bought by the usa govt and by 1906 with some modification was the now denver mint

 

and ponder this.... the first coin type struck at the clark gruber facility is the most famous and beautiful of all territoral gold coinage

 

the pikes peak mountain ten eagle struck in 1860 and was struck with pure unalloyed native colorado gold and more gold in this coin than the then current 1860 federal gold ten eagle

 

so the clark gruber facility became the current denver mint still opersating today and this mountain pikes peak gold ten was the first coin type struck at the denver mint

 

amazing coin--winkie--dink

 

you need one of these territoral mountain tens

 

 

[Zoins]

michael,

 

It seems like your reasoning for why they should be considered coins are:

 

(a) they circulated and were accepted at multiple venues

 

(b) the minting facility of one issuer was subsequently purchased by the US Government

 

© some of them are famous and beautiful

 

I'm not sure these would qualify the pieces as coins for me as my current definition requires the item to be legal tender and issued by a sovereign government.

 

The argument of yours that makes sense to me is (a). I'm not sure how the others would affect classification. If I accepted pioneer gold as coins based on (a), I would probably also classify Conder Tokens and Maui Trade Dollars as coins.

 

My classification as tokens by no means diminishes my respect for the history and beauty of these pieces. I think some people call them coins as a sign of respect but that is more of a subjective rather than objective classification. I tend to prefer objective, consistent classifications.

 

I haven't found any Colorado gold that I've fallen in love with yet. The Baldwin & Co. 1850 California Horseman is still my favorite but I just heard that the US SF Assay Office was created after a Baldwin & Co 1850 gold scandal. I'm assuming they put less gold in their pieces but I still need to read about it.

[PerryHall]

They are coins since they circulated as such and they were made of gold at full or near full intrinsic value. Tokens are made of base metals having little or no intrinsic value.

[okbustchaser]

They have a far stronger claim to status as coins then the precious metal bullion rounds being issued by the US mint today. Legal tender status has nothing to do with coin status--circulation in everyday commerce at a recognized face value does.

[DirtyGoldMan]

They have a far stronger claim to status as coins then the precious metal bullion rounds being issued by the US mint today. Legal tender status has nothing to do with coin status--circulation in everyday commerce at a recognized face value does.

 

I agree with the previous two posts. These are unquestionably coins. This Washington dollar elmo is more token than territorial gold is.

[James_OldeTowne]

If this were a poll, I'd select "coins".

[Zoins]

They have a far stronger claim to status as coins then the precious metal bullion rounds being issued by the US mint today. Legal tender status has nothing to do with coin status--circulation in everyday commerce at a recognized face value does.

Then wouldn't Conder Tokens also be considered coins using this line of reasoning? Weren't they also widely circulated and recognized as currency at face value due to their standardized metal content? I think I would have no problem classifying pioneer gold as coins, albeit "private coins," if Conder Tokens were also considered coins using the same reasoning. Do the people who consider pioneer gold to be coins also consider Conder Tokens to be coins?

 

How about:

 

Private Coins (aka coins): private-issue, multiple-venue

Token: single-venue

[okbustchaser]

Yes, I consider Conders (for that matter Civil War and Hard Times) tokens to be much closer to coins than the bullion rounds (gold, silver, and platinum eagles) of today which simply in no way, shape, or form should be considered coins.

[Hoot]

Good discussion.

 

I'd also agree that they are coins, albeit privately issued. Tokens often stood (stand) in place of a coin of similar metallic content and intrinsic value, but for specific purposesch as bus tokens or store cards. Coins, either privately minted or issued by a government, are used as unconditional (although sometimes limited) medium of exchange. California fractionals and privately issued full denominations were as widely accepted as a medium of exchange as governmentally issued coinage of the same intrinsic (although sometimes debased) worth. This leaves a gray area that would include hard times tokens and Civil War tokens. Those were as readily or dubiously accepted as coinage of similar composition that was issued by the government. Bear in mind that those were base metal (pure copper and bronze) and were as readily discounted as their counterparts, being U.S. half cents and cents. (Hard times pieces were similar in size and weight to half cents and large cents, while Civil War tokens were similar in size to small-sized cents.) So, inasmuch as those are called "tokens," they also functioned perfectly well as coinage.

 

One other matter of consequence was the degree to which the federal and state governments went after those who produced private coinage (including hard times and Civil War tokens). The governments largely did not care, and though they grumbled about the "competition" the private coinage served well to supplement commerce, which was more important than prevailing laws of the times. In this context, the governments' (indirect) acceptance was as good as a declaration of legal tender status, although they grumbled from time to time.

 

We also hear a lot nowadays about the 1933 Saints. They are coins. They would have been readily accepted as such in any formal or informal transaction. The feds calling them "chattel" is bureaucratic horsepucky. Any numismatists would prodly add them to their "coin" collection.

 

Hoot

[michael]

if you want to see a really cool colorado ten dollart gold piece which is totally original and never dipped or cleaned in any way and is really extremely rARE AS SUCH

 

i have seen and fallen in "love" with such a coin

 

i have been looking at some of these mountain tens this is like the baldwin horseman of colorado!!!

 

ther only one thart i saw that was totally original and came out of a box of gold coins in the northwest part of the usa and have the original native gold coloration pure unalloyed gold as these coin where the first struck at clark gruber and since they where so pure 24k they wore quickly so subsequently they changed all the other coins struck after the mountain ten with added copper alloy to give the coins more hardness hence "wearing power"

 

i have yet to see an original ten 1860 pikes mountain ten until i happened to this coin in their coins sold archive site about a year or so ago

 

maybe someone can post this coin here??

 

earlycoins.com then go to archives then go to gold coins and you will see the mountain ten pikes peak 1860 an amazing thick skinneed never dipp3ed original gold coin with the trace metals showing as toning in this unalloyed colorado placer gold used in theese coins essentially 24k gold with some trace alloys

 

this coin is amAMING FOR ITS TOTALLY ORIGINAL THICK CRUNCHY CRUSTY SKIN

[WoodenJefferson]

images courtesy of: Coin Rarities Online

This one?

[Zoins]

Thanks everyone. For correctness and consistency, it seems to make sense to start calling the other categories Conder Coins, Hard Times Coins and Civil War Coins. I hope no one gets on my case for doing so

[michael]

thanks woodenjefferson

 

that is the coin simply amazing and totally original

 

thick crunchy skin with great eye appeal

 

 

it makes grown men weep

[michael]

[rbrown4]

Love that coin. Can't beat the color and "original" appearance of it. Very nice.

rbrown4

[Hoot]

Thanks everyone. For correctness and consistency, it seems to make sense to start calling the other categories Conder Coins, Hard Times Coins and Civil War Coins. I hope no one gets on my case for doing so

 

Rebel . Fighting tradition .

 

 

 

Hoot