Baltimore Day 5: Coin Returns (good and bad), Lessons Learned, and more pics

[Dermott]

We all know the adage, I think it's the first thing they teach you when you start reading any book based on buying and selling coins... "If it's too good to be true......" Well, you know the rest.

 

Got a later than (what has been) normal start at the convention as we took the morning to go visit Ft McHenry. This placed us back at the convention around 2pm local time (with plans to catch the CONECA Lecture that occured at 2:30). I took the small amount of time to pick up what might be waiting for me at the NGC table (one or more of my 1911D/D Saints). The first one that was returned was the one I quickly bought yesterday. Unfortunately for me, it was returned BodyBagged as Improperly Cleaned. So here I am with a $465 dud in my hands. Oh joy.

 

We went to the CONECA lecture which focused on errors (mainly ones resulting from die caps and brockages (and both)) that defied current explanation. This allowed for a more interactive speaker/audience setting and I was able to ask several good questions and present my thoughts on the pieces. I can't really go into the individual pieces here as we went through quite a few and most if not all need the images to go with them.

 

Afterwards, we made our way to the presentation on Cherrypicking Lincoln Cents which was VERY informative focusing on RPMs and Doubled Dies. The speaker, Dr. Sol Taylor took us for a tour through quite a list of dates and signed his latest book for us. Looks like I have a job to do (if I get any time to do so) when I return.

 

At the end of the two presentations, we made our way back down to the bourse where I picked up my newly re-holdered (and now attributed) 1911 D/D MS-63 Saint (which I have posted here before). After talking to a couple other dealers, I was advised to confront the seller of the other, cleaned, 11 D/D. So we made our way back to this dealer's table.

 

I told the dealer I had good news and bad news. The good news of course was the variety, however the bad news was the grading (or lack of). Well, this apparently didn't sit well with him. He started asking why I had taken it to get graded. I said nothing on this, but gave him several looks at the audacity of the question. Personally, I don't see where a customer WOULD NOT be headed to a grading company to slab a new purchase, especially if they're unsure of the grade or want something attributed. Well, the dealer DID refund my money, but NOT before asking more than six seperate times for how much the transaction was (including quoting $440 instead of $465, on which I immediately corrected him), and his diatribe on same-day grading at conventions by the grading services. He also threw in that he "would have never sold me the coin had I known what you were going to do with it."

 

So the coin is returned (as is my money) and the lesson(s) learned. I now know that if a dealer is uncomfortable with me taking a raw coin directly to NGC to get graded, then I do not want the coin. The experience brought forward the promise that if I ever sit on that dealer's side of the tables, I will sell my coins fully expecting the buyer to walk (even if it's directly across the aisle) to a grading company to submit it.

 

Afterwards, as it was drawing later in the day and the bourse was starting to close down, we made our way back out with another stop by the Nickels for more picture taking.

 

One thing I can attest on the convention as a whole... it's BUSY. I've been trying to get to the NGC booth to talk to Brian Silliman for the past few days, but they have remained constantly covered in people submitting and picking up submissions.

 

Tomorrow morning will be our final day here in Baltimore which will be mainly my final hit upon the bourse floor, starting back at square one with spending money looking to find what I want to bring home and add to my collection. Thankfully, I've narrowed the field down... unfortunately, that leaves out too many items I would really like to bring home, but due to the constraints of budgets and reality won't... at least for this year.

[braddick]

Matt, It sounds like you had a great time, overall, at the Convention.

Now, don't be mad at me, but I'm going to make a suggestion- if anything, just for conversation:

I believe if a coin is purchased on the bourse floor, Sight Seen UNLESS prior arrangements are made, it is a DONE DEAL. In otherwords, I wouldn't have expected that Dealer to return your funds to you on the gold coin. Please, let me explain why.

 

Let's say the coin was holdered as a choice, MS63 and worth twice what you paid. Certainly you would NOT have been expected to speak with the Dealer the next day and give him additional funds. The reason is because the Dealer, and you viewed the coin before the transaction.

On the other hand, if NGC bagged it for cleaning (sounds like you suspected they might) you own it.

 

Unless the coin was proven to be counterfeit or altered it was bought with no conditions of return and Sight Seen buying would preclude a return.

 

I believe the Dealer went the 'extra mile' in making you happy by returning your funds.

Afterall, he could have also taken the stand the coin would have sold to another potential buyer while you had control of it for the day.

Just some thoughts.

Either way, again, I'm glad to hear you had an enjoyable show.

[291fifth]

I have to agree that you didn't deserve the refund. Why anyone would buy raw US gold at this point is beyond me.

[bigd5]

I "kind of" agree with Braddick on this one. A couple of exceptions.

 

The dealer seemed like a [!@#%^&^]. Sorry for that adjective, but it's what comes to mind. If he was going to make the refund he should have fumed inside, and given the refund, and hoped to possibly make a sale in the future. Instead he whined and complained. I can't stand that.

 

If you purchase the coin raw, and expect to return the coin if it gets bagged by the services, state your intentions up front that you would like to return the coin if it gets bagged. MANY dealers will do this. MANY dealers will not guarantee a grade however. If they don't want to agree to a return privelage on a bodybag, then the coin probably isn't worth purchasing, IF it's a significant coin.

 

Remember, you saw the coin, and agreed to purchase it in the condition it was offered in. I think you should consider yourself lucky to get your money back, and that the dealer didn't offer to give you a credit on the money towards another item in his inventory.

 

Other than that situation, it sounds like you had a good show!

 

 

[dakra]

Personally, I think a dealer should be responsible for what he sells. The dealer should not be selling cleaned coins, the same goes for altered, etc.

 

Just because he was unable to detect the coin has been cleaned is no reason why he should get stuck with the coin. If dealers don't like coins being returned, perhaps they should start posting their return policy.

 

Just my 2 cents.

-Dave

 

 

[keithdagen]

I agree that a dealer should guarantee that a coin is slabbable, but should have no recourse on the grades if it's within a point or two. If they are selling a MS-65 piece and it comes back AU-58, I'd be a little PO'd. If it comes back MS-64, that's more a buyer issue, in my opinion.

[291fifth]

The coin can be slabbed...just not by PCGS or NGC. ANACS will net grade it. PCI will red holder it. SEGS will (hopefully) state that it has been cleaned.

 

In all three slabbing cases it is better than having the coin raw. Raw US gold often means trouble.

 

[braddick]

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If a coin YOU believe is MS65 comes back AU58 why are you punishing the Dealer? Apparently both YOU and the Dealer were wrong (or, heaven forbid, the Service is wrong) so why is the Dealer stuck with YOUR mistake?

[dakra]

Braddick,

I've worked customer service all my life and although sometimes the "Customer is always right", I do agree that sometimes the customer is wrong! Personally, if you are a dealer, you are going to know how to grade, your going to recognize a cleaned coin. If I buy from you and the coin has been cleaned, you have a responsibility to take it back.

 

Grading is subjective, it is an opinion but if you tell me the coin is mind state and it comes back AU, you have a responsibility to take the coin back or refund me the difference.... atleast this is the way I think it should be in my dream world

 

-Dave

 

 

[braddick]

Braddick,

I've worked customer service all my life and although sometimes the "Customer is always right", I do agree that sometimes the customer is wrong! Personally, if you are a dealer, you are going to know how to grade, your going to recognize a cleaned coin. If I buy from you and the coin has been cleaned, you have a responsibility to take it back.

 

Grading is subjective, it is an opinion but if you tell me the coin is mind state and it comes back AU, you have a responsibility to take the coin back or refund me the difference.... atleast this is the way I think it should be in my dream world

 

-Dave

 

Dave,

Excellent. I would add though that if you buy coins Sight Seen, it is up to you the Collector to also be informed especially if the coin enters the $400.00+ arena. I've had Dealers give me THEIR opinion on a coin and I've passed because I don't accept that opinion. If I buy the coin though after studying it and looking it over and later it is determined to have been cleaned, I should have spotted that. I'm out.

(Of course, alterations and authenticity issues are void from the above logic as the 'coin' now enters the realm of possible fraud.)

[Dermott]

Interesting back and forth, yes, I do consider myself lucky to have gotten the refund (especially after the coin was removed from the 2x2 and with no written or verbal guarantee of any refund). Although, I DID have a couple of travel companions ready to turn the episode into an embarrassment for the dealer if it were needed (manly by causing a seen about his opinions that "I wouldn't have sold you the coin if I knew you were going to get it slabbed" and "If you send the coin in 'slowboat' it would have been slabbed").

 

I did learn a valuable lesson though, and have maintained that through this past day (which I will update after this response) that unless a dealer is able to look at me and be comfortable with a customer taking a coin straight to ANY grading company for review, only then will I buy from them at a show like the ANA convention.

 

The dealer I dealt with I believe wanted to avoid a scene, but still come off as incensed that someone dare question his judgment.

 

But, as they say... lessons learned.

[keithdagen]

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If a coin YOU believe is MS65 comes back AU58 why are you punishing the Dealer? Apparently both YOU and the Dealer were wrong (or, heaven forbid, the Service is wrong) so why is the Dealer stuck with YOUR mistake?

 

Pat,

 

When I made the statement, I gear that towards the newer collector who may not really know what "rub" is yet, or doesn't know what to look for in a cleaned coin. I've had both happen to me, a MS-64 raw Liberty nickel slabbed AU-58 and a gold piece bodybagged for cleaning.

 

At the time, I bought the coins from a reputable dealer who was part of PCGS's group of Recommended Dealers, and I was still learning how to grade and about coins in general, having just gotten into collecting them. The purchases weren't huge, but if I hadn't gotten the refunds on the coins, I probably wouldn't be collecting coins anymore either.

[braddick]

Sounds good Keith.

 

As a side note: I appreciate this Forum. In the context of coins we can disagree and there is no need for mud slinging.

 

I know I learn much more from all of you when the format is one of speaking to one another instead of at one another.

[LucyBop]

a good thread...... I've learned a few things here... everybody made good points....

 

Thanks Hepcats!!!

[dakra]

Braddick,

In my last post I was going to post that I have always enjoyed your posts and respect your opinion, then I deleted what i typed, re-typed it and left that out.

 

I think common sense to us in buying a raw coin is trying to work out an agreement with the dealer or working out a return policy but to people not as knowledgeable, it may not be that cut and dry.

 

....Of course, I've never spent more than $300 on a coin

 

-Dave

[braddick]

Braddick,

In my last post I was going to post that I have always enjoyed your posts and respect your opinion, then I deleted what i typed, re-typed it and left that out.

 

I think common sense to us in buying a raw coin is trying to work out an agreement with the dealer or working out a return policy but to people not as knowledgeable, it may not be that cut and dry.

 

....Of course, I've never spent more than $300 on a coin

 

-Dave

Thanks Dave.

[jeffnpcb-migration]

Did he expect you, or any other purhaser, do something other than have it checked. I have found that most raw gold has been cleaned over the years before anyone realized any differently! Same goes for early cents and silver coins!

 

{PSSST! What is the dealer or store name??}

just kidding!

[LegendSteve-migration]

There is something to keep in mind here... A dealer should be responsible for his opinion, but he is NOT responsible for someone else's opinion.

 

In other words, why should he have been responsible for the opinions of a few faceless back-room graders at NGC? Also, what would have happened if ANACS had graded the coin NET MS62, LIGHTLY CLEANED? Or, if SEGS did that?

 

All grading is a matter of "net" grading of all the problems that a coin has developed over the years. When a coin rolls of the presses, do you think it immediately becomes PF64 or MS65? And, all "net" grading is a matter of opinion.

 

Steve

 

[Dermott]

Well, there IS a little bit more to the story as well.

 

When I bought the piece, he spun a story about how he had just bought it off someone for $450 when they wanted $490 and was "only" making $15 on the sale at $465. When I took the coin back, he was also ranting about how it would have gone through had I "slowboated" the coin through (which of course would be weeks after the convention and after he was LONG gone).

 

Amongst the spin he was giving (which was about as good as any politician or news reporter/commentator), it was hard to believe exactly where the truth of the coin lay.

 

I DID take the coin over to ANACS after showing it to the guys over at CONECA (due to the RPM) and they also said it would probably come back "lightly cleaned".

 

I see it's sparked an interesting discussion on what different people would consider policy, and I do not fault anyone for their opinions. When I took the coin back, I was fully expecting the guy to say "Tough" and be stuck with a bad purchase made on the spur of the moment.

 

As for who it was, I don't remember the placard, but he was on a corner (either table number 353 or 453, I can't rightly recall), and he had to little "torch" lamps with paper "flames" that danced due to a small fan below them.

[dakra]

I went to my local dealer today and noticed something I haven't seen before... no returns on coins! Which suprised me as he has often offered me a return policy.

 

Anyone want to work up a mock return policy? (kidding)

 

-Dave

[Count_Erfit]

With the state that grading is in (constant flux) at a show, it's my opinion that a coin should not be purchased unless it is satisfactory at the TIME OF PURCHASE.

However, I also believe that if someone wants to walk it to the graders, that should be DISCLOSED. Disclosure is a 2 way street. Buyers bag dealers and dealers bag buyers. Not always intentionally.

But ANY CONDITIONS should be known before purchase, and the purchase should not be made unless both parties know who owns the coin and who owns the money.

Personally, if I had any qualms, I would have asked the dealer if it was OK to run it over for a looksee............BEFORE..........buying it. IF I HAD ANY QUESTION.

 

I just purchased a raw coin by mail and made it clear to the dealer that I would be SENDING it in and asked if he would extend the return period to cover the time involved. He could have said no in which case I would not have told him to send the coin. He said yes and I sent it and it did not grade as high as he thought and I am getting a refund. BUT.........we BOTH knew the whole story and agreed to the conditions.