Do you think it is an acceptable practice to "ripp" someone with less coin ....

[barberlover-migration]

Right now, I don't seem to be able to get in on the other side of the street so I decided to post this here;

 

Do you think it is an acceptable practice to deliberatly "ripp" someone else because they have less coin knowledge then you ?

 

This question was inspired by an answer to a pole question on the other forum about wether or not you still enjoy the coin buiz/hobby inspite of all the pitfalls involveed and someone responded to an example I gave about how many times I was ripped off as a new collector by saying that was my fault for not having more knowledge at the time. I agree that new collectors need to learn how to grade for themselves, but even now, the experts don't always agree on grade or we wouldn't have the crackout game.

 

That does not justify [in my opionion] deliberatly cheating someone else to your own financial gain and patting yourself on the back for your efforts.

 

I think that mentality is why people left the hobby in droves in the 1970's. Knowledge is important, but it does not exclude honosty and integrity from the picture. It's one thing to buy a coin graded as a 65 already thinking it might upgrade to a 66 and taking the risks involved with the crackout game, it's another matter to tell someone there coin isn't worth much in hopes of buying it for next to nothing if you know it really is worth a great deal, then after buying it, turning right around and selling it yourself for many multiples of what you paid for it and justify doing it by saying if the collector you bought it from wanted a better price, he should have learned more first. And that excuses you from being dishonost ? That is B.S. in my opionion, but what do you think?

 

Les

[CarlWohlforth]

Of course it is not acceptable to take advantage of other people. I don't know how some people can live with themselves!

 

I highly recommend buying NGC or PCGS slabbed coins. At least you can't get ripped quite so badly that way.

 

I am disturbed by all this "Caveat Emptor" philosophy. As the industry is now buyers really must be super cautious and super knowledgeable. Even after years of experience and study one can easily blow it.

 

Many, many people get turned off because they get ripped. People get ripped by buying a slider as BU from an ad in a magazine. Or they buy a counterfeit coin. Or a over graded raw coin. (I think all raw coins are over graded )

 

So you really must beware. However the industry would be much bigger and the hobby much more enjoyable if casual collectors didn't get taken advantage of so frequently.

 

edited to correct some spelling errors.

[DrWho-migration]

I am another collector that has returned to collecting, after a 30 year hiatus. I only left the hobby, temporarily, because of other priorities. Now I am back. Dealers and Coin businessmen, please listen:

 

I love the hobby.

I have been scammed enough, about a $500 lesson, a cheap lesson at that.

I am frustrated because of the shams, cheats, charlatan's.

I have the money now to get into it, in a quality way, but....

I don't like being scammed!

Therefore, I am back to filling the holes, from pocket change.

And long for the quality coins I love, but...

I don't like being scammed!

 

I will not buy from ebay. I will not visit the local coin shoppe (tried that, attempted to sham me!) Will not buy at a show. Will not buy from live auctions. Will not buy at shows. The $500 lesson will not become a $600 lesson.

 

Therefore, back to hole filling from pocket change.

[ArtR]

When I came into this hobby 30+ years ago I came in with the mind set that I would always treat others like I would like to be treated.

In answer to your question no I have never or will I ever take advantage of any person, and really don't want to associate or do business with any one that will.

 

[coinman1794]

Do you think it is an acceptable practice to deliberatly "ripp" someone else because they have less coin knowledge then you ?

 

Am I missing something here? Of course it's not acceptable to "ripp" someone off! Telling someone their coin is worth substantially less than it really is is criminal. The word stealing comes to mind.

[nwcs]

 

No, it isn't right to rip people. And it should not be acceptable in our hobby, but it is because there is a percentage that does it. That percentage of people likely negatively influence newbies to such a degree that they abandon the best hobby there is. I've had to learn how to read between the lines with some dealers. One dealer bought a coin from me. I documented the problems and told him how I would grade it. He agreed with me and gave me a half-way decent price. Next thing I know the grade went up and the problems disappeared. No, he didn't change the coin. Only the label. And doubled the price he said he could sell it for when I sold it to him.

[SarasotaFrank]

I have frequented a coin shop where this is standard practice. After the customer leaves, there is actually boasting about the deal.

 

Like this one I witnessed:

 

Customer brings in a quantity of Indian Cents in so so condition. Dealer examines every one and tells the customer they aren't worth much, but he'll pay a buck a piece.

 

After the customer leaves, the dealer extracts the 72, 73 and 77 which were in the lot.

 

great hobby.

[barberlover-migration]

Thanks for the answers so far, it reaffirms my belief tha while bad things still happen, overall it is better now then it was 25 years ago.

 

For anyone interested in hearing the other side of this opionion you can look at my pole on the other forum and the answer that the person that calls himself "bozz" gave.

 

Les

[291fifth]

I can't believe all the negativity toward coin dealers I am reading here. After all, their ethical standards are far higher than sports memorabilia dealers!

 

Having been involved in the hobby since 1961 I obviously like coin collecting a great deal. At the same time, the ethical standards in the hobby have always been bad, with many collectors being as bad as the dealers. I'd like to say I think there will be an improvement in the future but I don't believe there will be. How about that for a positive spin on this very negative thread!

[barberlover-migration]

This was not meant as a total negative by me, but it was certainly meant to be a big negative towards anyone [collector or dealer] that would feel that such practices are legit and "it's the collectors fault for not having the knowledge" as expressed by someone in the other forum in my pole thread.

 

I still enjoy the hobby and have learned a great deal over the years about being careful who I do buisness with.

 

I wish I could be more positive and say there are no bad apples out there, but that is not the world we live in today, that doesn't mean there arn't good people in the hobby or that you can't enjoy the hobby, but it does mean that you have to be careful who you trust and learning is essential to not loosing your shirt.

 

Les

[jeffnpcb-migration]

MORALITY?? Fits in with greed for making money decisions in life!

[Leothelion]

Do you think it is an acceptable practice to deliberatly "ripp" someone else because they have less coin knowledge then you ?

 

Les

 

I totally agree! It's a very unacceptable practice especially when the gain/loss factor is unreasonably high. I actually believe it's illegal if there's a substantial loss. But as one dealer told me, " is it my responsibility to educate the guy?"

But I would like to think most deals fall within the 20% leeway in buying and selling.

But then again, as they say, a dealer needs to buy at a 20% cost to maintain his business, if the coin is common.

Usually, no-one forces anyone to sell or buy. It's the knowledge they poccess at the time of the transaction that forms their decision to buy or sell. Who's responsibility is it?

I've seen teenagers run into a coin shop I frequent, to sell coins so they can buy ciggerettes.

For someone to buy an ounce of gold today at 1970 levels from someone today who has no idea or the sense to know what gold is worth.......OK, this guy is truly an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, is why he doesn't know what gold is worth but my point is, this kind of transaction would be considered illegal. But depending on what neck of the woods it's happening in, someone could probably get away with it. Same thing for a rare coin, lets say after Stacks claimed that 1913 was a fake and they actually bought it for a buck but later, say 41 years later, the coin turns out to be real, I would think Stacks would be in trouble.

What all this boils down to is in the old saying, "BUYER BEWARE" The sad thing is, not everyone is aware of it. I truly believe every deal, sale, auction, coin site, you name it, should carry a simple "buyers beware" clause that sends them a fair warning that there are risks in buying and selling coins, the fluctuating of market values and whatever would give that individual an opportunity to think before he buys or sells.

 

On another note along these lines is the hype and the enticements taking place within the hobby that helps you spend your money. The following is a classic example of enticement whether the buyer was aware of the PCGS pops or not. But it would have cost them to find out as well, as the PCGS pops are not free. The following statement or claim, "so this set is practically impossible to put together, as only three of these sets can exist,"was made in an auction to help the item to sell. By the end of the auction the pops said 16 Maines, not 3. But it worked, nontheless, if the buyer based his decision on that statement. Sounds looney doesn't it?

Some kind of clause should be posted at all times to warn all collectors and dealers alike, about the risks in buying and selling. Sure, most sites have clauses if you dig deep enough to find them. They do exist but they aren't publicized.

 

Leo

[Elcontador]

It's not acceptable, but it happens. If you met the woman of your dreams & the two of you decided to get married, would you walk into the nearest jewelry shop, look at a ring, say, "that one looks nice, how much is it," have the salesman tell you how wonderful it is and then buy it?

 

I really don't see much difference between my scenario and yours. The point is that if you don't educate yourself before making a major purchase, you take your chances.

[GDJMSP]

I have known of too many cases where a person who has inherited a collection walks into a dealer's shop looking to sell - and the dealer makes some rediculous low offer. Many times the person just sighs & takes the offer. This should not happen - but it does.

 

Now another scenario - a coin is put up for bid on ebay with no reserve and a low starting price. The seller typically sells this coin type but is by no means an expert. You find this auction and recognize that the coin being offered is actually a very rare variety - less than 10 known. You decide to watch it expecting a high ending bid. But with only minutes to go the bid is still low - apparently no one else noticed what you noticed about the coin.

 

What would you do ? Do you swoop in and snatch up a bargain ?

 

And if you do - do you write to the seller and tell them - " I'm sorry - I just can't buy this coin for $150 - it's actually very valuable. I feel like I have to pay you more."

 

 

[coinman1794]

I have known of too many cases where a person who has inherited a collection walks into a dealer's shop looking to sell - and the dealer makes some rediculous low offer. Many times the person just sighs & takes the offer. This should not happen - but it does.

 

Now another scenario - a coin is put up for bid on ebay with no reserve and a low starting price. The seller typically sells this coin type but is by no means an expert. You find this auction and recognize that the coin being offered is actually a very rare variety - less than 10 known. You decide to watch it expecting a high ending bid. But with only minutes to go the bid is still low - apparently no one else noticed what you noticed about the coin.

 

What would you do ? Do you swoop in and snatch up a bargain ?

 

And if you do - do you write to the seller and tell them - " I'm sorry - I just can't buy this coin for $150 - it's actually very valuable. I feel like I have to pay you more."

 

 

There is a notable difference between this senario and someone giving a lowball offer. In this case, the owner sets a price he/she is willing to accept for the item (whether this person makes an informed desision or not is up to him/her, for they are initiating the sell at their price.) In the other, a dealer/buyer ripps off the person by lying to them about the value.

 

Now, it certainly would be a nice idea to give the seller more, but I don't know that it is necessary. I certainly don't think its criminal to buy the coin, as I do think it is with lowball offer senario.

[cointagious]

It's one thing to buy a coin graded as a 65 already thinking it might upgrade to a 66 and taking the risks involved with the crackout game, it's another matter to tell someone there coin isn't worth much in hopes of buying it for next to nothing if you know it really is worth a great deal, then after buying it, turning right around and selling it yourself for many multiples of what you paid for it and justify doing it by saying if the collector you bought it from wanted a better price, he should have learned more first.

 

there is little distiction and no difference between the two examples. in each case, you presume to know more than the person you bought it from. in an arms length transaction, you owe the seller no advice.

the entire dealer base of this industry/hobby is built on the 'rip'.

 

[ursabear-migration]

I think the true key thought here is that honesty is king when an inexperienced person does business with an experienced person.

[Leothelion]

And if you do - do you write to the seller and tell them - " I'm sorry - I just can't buy this coin for $150 - it's actually very valuable. I feel like I have to pay you more."

 

Hi GDJMSP

I think if the senario took place and if the seller doesn't have a clue about the coin's rarity, his response would be, " then send me more money" accompanied with a laugh or two. I'm the kind of guy who has paid a little more then what was originally offered for the coin because the worst case senario is, if the seller finds out at a later time that you have pulled a fast one, he will unlikely sell to you again.

 

Leo