1/2 Cent question

[MBA101]

Are there large numbers of survivors for 1/2 Cents or are there just very few collectors of these things? It appears that there are many dates where the mintages are rather low (less than 100,000) and the value of a decent XF graded coin is on the low side. For example, an 1832 in XF lists for $110 in the PCGS price guide, and has a mintage of only around 50K. There are several Coronet dates that have mintages that are even lower, yet do not have high price tags. I wonder if any of these coins actually circulated, or they just sat in bank vaults.

[lkenefic]

While this is true to the extent that the numbers reflect this in published literature and online sources, the reality is that you can expect to pay several times that for a nice "no-problems" XF.

 

Leo

[James_OldeTowne]

Are there large numbers of survivors for 1/2 Cents or are there just very few collectors of these things?

Shhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

 

[MikeKing]

I wish I knew the answer to this myself, and wonder if it's a little bit of both for some of them, though not all. What I do know is that if you buy a 'premium quality for the grade' 1/2 cent, when you sell, it's likely you will do well (whatever that means). That's just my impression.

 

When I did collect them, and sold, I made a small profit.

 

I only have one now, and actually paid 100% premium on it because I felt it was so nice (in XF condition).

[Prethen]

My understanding is from the copper experts is that the survival of these is relatively low, across all years (same with large cents, through the early 1900's). There's just not that many collectors that go after these things unless it's for type...like what I did. The surviving numbers, if I remember correctly is typically in the 3%-5% range. That seems extremely low but those are the numbers I seem to remember being bandied about.

[Hoot]

Last summer at the ANA seminar we discussed this matter. The top copper collectors agree that the survivorship of half cents is far less than cents. Half cent experts think that about 65,000 pieces of all dates in all grades survive. Most of these are low grade, and the vast majority of high grade survivors are late date (1825-57) pieces.

 

Hoot

[BillJones]

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that the percentage of survivorship of half cents for certain dates might be higher than it is for large cents. The dates I have in mind are 1828 and 1835. It is a well-known fact that hoards of Mint State or near Mint State examples of these coins existed and were in numismatic circulation. There was also a hoard of a few hundred Mint State 1806 half cents (Large 6, with stems, Cohen-4) that the Chatman brothers (Philadelphia, PA coin dealers) had in the early 1900s. For that reason, this coin is relatively easy to find in grades ranging from AU-58 to MS-62 or 63, R&B.

 

Most all of the business strike half cents from 1849 to 1857 can be found fairly easily, and it is rare to find them in less than Choice VF. Most all of them are EF or AU with a fair number of Brown Uncs. around also. These coins were very unpopular with the general public when they were issued, and most of the survivors stayed in bank vaults and were not used in circulation.

 

Don’t get me wrong. The mintages for half cents were low in many cases, and for most years, at least in the 1790s and the first decade of 1800s the coins saw a lot of use. Therefore the really scarce dates, like 1802 and 1811 are virtually unknown in Mint State or even close to it. Still from 1825 onward, half cents saw very little circulation, and it’s rare to see them worn down to VG or lower. Most low grade pieces get that way via damage or corrosion.

 

Prices have been kept lower than they would have been over the years because there are not a huge number of half cent collectors. I think one of things that discourages general collectors is that the series has so many gaps (1812 – 1824 and for all practical purposes 1836 to 1848 to name two big ones) that most collectors just can’t get “hooked.”

[Hoot]

Bill - I don't think your observations go against the grain. As you mentioned, the half cents of 1793-1811 were circulated to death. Most high grade survivors are from 1825-57 and nearly every half cent from 1849-57 is XF or better. The coins were hoarded variously and they also simply did not circulate in that period. Circulation of half cents and large cents in the 1820s and beyond was done with some chagrin, with only the period around 1837 being one where copper was readily accepted (due to a small change specie shortage). Still, I do not think that many of these pieces survive; Craig Hamling is the person who feels like the 65K estimate for the total is about right. I think that the light collecting pressure makes the coins "seem" more common than they actually are.

 

As a series, all of the challenge lies in attempting to collect the 1793-1811 pieces and the proofs of 1836-49. The latter is a very expensive series, with fewer than 50 of each date (originals and restrikes combined) surviving.

 

Hoot

[CarlWohlforth]

I'm not sure why they aren't more popular. They are larger than small cents. There is a lot of variety. I like 'em.

[okie-coins-migration]

My experience in trying to collect a type example for all three half cents, Draped Bust, Classic Head, and Coronet Head is that it was fairly easy to get XF to AU examples at reasonable prices in the Classic Head and Coronet. The Draped Bust is another game all together. Most surviving examples are damaged and if you go above a F12 with no problems (no corrosion, cleaning, scratches etc.) you are going to encounter lots of competition in bidding and expect to pay a large premium, especially for slabbed coins. In regards to the Large Cents, I think there are actually fewer surviving examples of the Draped Bust and Classic Head LC than there are half cents. Again most on the market are corroded and damaged. I have managed to get undamaged F12 or better examples of all the early coppers for my Dansco 7070, but it has taken some time to get them all. Of all the coins in the 7070, I like the early coppers the best. They just reek of history! With the recent interest in type collecting, the market is very strong in my opinion.

[MBA101]

Looking at auction records, it appears that these later date coins (1825-1857) seem to go at auction right around the wholesale values, regardless of grade. Many are cleaned and sell for significantly less. Looks like some of the PCGS coins command a slight premium.

 

Of the grading services, who is best with early copper, with regard to spotting problems and assigning correct grades?

[lkenefic]

Of the grading services, who is best with early copper, with regard to spotting problems and assigning correct grades?

 

Totally hit or miss...even the top three tend to blow it on grades. Part of the problem stems from inconsistencies among copper experts and "market grading". There are several copper experts that can weigh in here but suffice it to say that it behooves one to learn all you can before plunking down large amounts of cash just because it happens to be in plastic. I've seen market grades off by as much as 20 points in some instances.

[BillJones]

Of the grading services, who is best with early copper, with regard to spotting problems and assigning correct grades?

 

Totally hit or miss...even the top three tend to blow it on grades. Part of the problem stems from inconsistencies among copper experts and "market grading". There are several copper experts that can weigh in here but suffice it to say that it behooves one to learn all you can before plunking down large amounts of cash just because it happens to be in plastic. I've seen market grades off by as much as 20 points in some instances.

 

Most of the early copper coins that I have seen in NGC and PCGS slabs have been pretty disappointing. Excessive marks, poor eye appeal and overgrading are pretty much the rule. In the few instances when they got it right, the prices were through the roof because the supply of correctly graded copper in slabs is very small.

[MBA101]

Very disconcerting. I will make it a point to spend money on the low end of things until I have a better feel for grading and color, which shouldn't be too difficult to do...

 

Thanks for the note!

[lkenefic]

"Mike in FL" had a very worthwhile thread a couple of weeks ago about an 1829 LC he got at the FUN show. The "guess the grade" portion of the thread ranged anywhere from VG10/F12-ish all the way up to AU50. This is reflective of EAC grading standards which takes into account the initial strike of the coin versus market grading. "Hoot" had a very insightful analysis of the difference between the two. If time warrants today...I'll try to dig out that thread...it's probably one I should have printed off and taped to the wall!!

 

Leo

[MikeInFL]

Here's a link to the thread....Mike

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...e=2#Post1583655

 

p.s. thanks for the kind words.

[MBA101]

You took your photo down...

 

I followed part of this thread, but need to read the whole thing through. I bet this whole early copper debate will rear its ugly head again very soon.

[MikeInFL]

Actually, I didn't take the photo down, but the hosting site (pbase) did experience a few outages today. In any event, if you reload the thread the pics should be displayed as pbase is back up now...Mike

[MBA101]

Actually, I didn't take the photo down, but the hosting site (pbase) did experience a few outages today. In any event, if you reload the thread the pics should be displayed as pbase is back up now...Mike

 

Cool...

[1798CentCollector-migratio]

As you mentioned, the half cents of 1793-1811 were circulated to death. Most high grade survivors are from 1825-57 and nearly every half cent from 1849-57 is XF or better. The coins were hoarded variously and they also simply did not circulate in that period. Circulation of half cents and large cents in the 1820s and beyond was done with some chagrin, with only the period around 1837 being one where copper was readily accepted (due to a small change specie shortage). Still, I do not think that many of these pieces survive; Craig Hamling is the person who feels like the 65K estimate for the total is about right. I think that the light collecting pressure makes the coins "seem" more common than they actually are.

 

As a series, all of the challenge lies in attempting to collect the 1793-1811 pieces and the proofs of 1836-49. The latter is a very expensive series, with fewer than 50 of each date (originals and restrikes combined) surviving.

 

I would agree !!

 

As Hoot also alluded to in another post, there's been much interest in this topic of surviving populations of half cents. Ron Manley, Bill Eckberg and other noted half cent hounds have done some extensive research into this topic. At EAC 05 this topic was covered with great interest and much debate as to the surviving populations and numbers.

 

If you grade by EAC standards and employ net grading and condition grades, TPGs miss the boat almost every time. I have encountered very very few coins in the mid-to-high grades that I can say the EAC grade and TPG grade are consistent. That's expected. The wildest departures are in the UNC/AU down to the VF grades. There is more consistency in the lower grades. Many "substandard" coins by EAC standards make it into TPG holders - I've seen a slew of coins that have been recolored or conserved end up in slabs (not counting ANACs coins graded with details).