1992 D DDO Lincoln ... Am I Right? With a 1989D & 1995D added. (big images)

[astrostu]

I bought $50 in cents from a bank today and in the third roll I opened, I found the attached coin below. I couldn't believe it, and I tried to scan it but it didn't come out at all. So I finally got out my camera and used two lights (incl. my new flash! ... another expensive hobby I have) to take this shot. To me, it sure looks like a DDO on the date. I'm just doubting myself here because (a) I've never discovered an error coin from circulation other than weak strikes, very slightly filled dies omitting some design elements, and very slightly off-center coins; and (b) because I can't find this error listed in the Red Book nor on coppercents.com.

 

So, (1) am I right, (2) if so, how rare is this, (3) if so, is it potentially valuable enough that I should keep it in anything other than an AirTite (e.g., send it in for grading ... it's probably around an AU-50)?

 

Thanks!

 

Oh, and I'm providing the image of the DDO part as a blown-up inset because otherwise the image is several megabytes.

 

NOTE (added later) I just discovered heavy doubling on the reverse above all but the last letters in "AMERICA."

 

[WoodenJefferson]

What you have is not considered a double die or the correctly used term, doubled die.

 

This is a very significant machine doubling of the date probably the result of loose dies during the minting process.

 

Although unique and different, it does possess a bit of numismatic value, no where near a true doubled die variety I'm affraid to say.

 

Hang on to it, treasure it, have fun collecting.

 

Thanks for the great pictures and intrest.

 

btw, If I'm wrong about this, I will be swiftly corrected

[Cannon Coins]

IMHO..and I'm far from an expert on this subject. From the photo it appears to me to be what's called "machine doubling" which is usually caused from vibration during the pressing of the planchet.Bolts that hold the collars in place that hold the die tight,loosen slightly now and then and need routine tightening to keep them from moving or vibrating while pressing the coins design. Although I find them interesting and fun to find, a machine doubled coin usually doesn't bring a big premium. But don't spend it !! .... as I could be way off on this. I'm sure there are some folks on here that are more qualified than me to give a more experienced oppinion on the variety coins. GOOD EYES !! I sure do miss em....

[Cannon Coins]

..ya beat me by a minute there WJ...

[astrostu]

Thanks guys, makes sense. After all, I guess a true doubled die would be doubled over the entire face, right?

 

Which leads me to ask about this 1989 one. I originally thought triple machine doubling (look at the date), but then I was thinking that maybe this was a candidate for doubled die with an extra machine doubling? Or just weak machine tripling in one place and doubling elsewhere? Confusing coin ...

 

I also found another (1995 D) that I think is just very weak machine doubling, since it only shows very faint doubling on the date ... not gonna bother posting a pic of that unless people ask.

 

But, can anyone tell me what's going on with this coin?

 

[JRocco]

Hi astrostu,

What you are seeing on the 89D is die chatter or die bouncing which caused mechanical or strike doubling--sorry but not a doubled die.

Now 95D has a nice known doubled die that I am asking you to post pics of so we can take a look at it.

Keep searching and I bet you will be rewarded.

[astrostu]

Okay, so a lesson from this ... how do you tell the difference between DD or just mechanical doubling? I updated the picture of the 1989 cent above to show just below the bust, and to me, that certainly looks like the DDO that's shown at http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1989&die_id=1989d1do001&die_state=mds ... other than the triple "8" in the date.

 

The 1995 D was very difficult to photograph because the doubling is very subtle. But I see it in the date, mint mark, places in "IN GOD WE TRUST," as well as "LIBERTY," and the extra nubbule that's on Lincoln's neck (like in http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1995&die_id=1995d1do003&die_state=mds ), and along Lincon's shirt. No insets this time because there are too many places.

 

[JRocco]

This has always been a tough thing to get the hang of, but once you do-it's like a light bulb going off and you will be able to tell in a second what you have.

 

The best summation I can offer between the two is this---a true doubled die shows 2 images of a design--say the letter G--one being on top of or offset to the first letter, but 2 letters.

A strike doubled coin shows one image of a design---say again the letter G--- with part of that ONE image restruck by the die...not 2 separate G's like the true doubled die.

Now die deterioration is just that ... the die shows its age and abuse by DISTORTING the ONE image---say the letter G--- so what you end up seeing is the original letter with a distorted imprint of the same letter usually exaggerated in one direction. Die deterioration can occur, like strike doubling, on just one design element and not the neighboring element.

As an example--here are a couple of true doubled dies---notice the clear "imprint" of a second letter IN ADDITION to the main design letter?

Another example--and one of my favorite coins-- a real monster example of what I am saying about 2 separate letters.

[WoodenJefferson]

First, you have to understand how Doubled Die coins occur in the first place and then how Machine Double might be misconstrued to represent doubling. When a modern coin die is created, it is struck from a working hub, which places the incuse image onto the die that will subsequently be used to strike coins. Using a master die to create stamping dies. Normally the procedure of making striking dies requires multiple blows from the master die. If one of the working obverse dies was misaligned on the second blow from the working hub it will result in a doubled image. Every single coin struck will bear the doubled image of the working die. Due to the manner in which the hubbing is carried out, it most noticeably affected the date and inscriptions, with very little doubling visible on the bust of Lincoln.

 

Under normal circumstances these incorrect dies will be caught but production schedules and with tight time tables they sometimes escape mint detection, much to the delight of collectors. There is usually a time span from minting till the coins are actually released and noticed by the public, then authenticated with the ensuing scramble to find the existing errors.

 

Machine doubling on coins goes back to the invention of the steam powered coin presses used by the Philadelphia Mint in the early 1800's It is more of a mechanical error versus a permanent working die error. Loose dies and hubs from vibrations and extreme pressures account for just about all of the machine doubling that has occurred on classic and modern coinage.

 

Machine Doubling, only a portion of the letter/number is shifted

 

Actual Doubled Die, the entire letter/number is shifted

 

Hope this helps.

[JRocco]

Sorry for this older pic, but here is an example of my 95P DDO to compare to your 95D.

On this die, the pivot point was near the date. The least doubling is near the pivot point, in this case-the date. The further away the more the doubling as this coin was shifted counterclockwise. Imagine two identical coins one on top of the other---now hold them together at the date and slightly move the top coin counterclockwise while holding the two coins TOGETHER at the date---voila--this would be the result- a slight shift in one direction only.

[astrostu]

Alright, I think I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong:

 

The doubled die errors are created by a slight rotation between strikes when the die is actually being created. This creates an even doubling of the design over an entire side of the coin, where it appears as though the doubling is centered about a point (e.g., no doubling on the date indicates that's the center, so the most doubling is towards the legend word "IN").

 

Machine doubling is created from a "perfect" die that strikes a coin in certain spot(s) multiple times in slightly different places, creating an off-set duplication of that design element(s).

 

Assuming this is correct, then my remaining question is: In machine doubling, what happens if it actually strikes the coin evenly a second time, in a very slightly different location/rotation? How can that be differentiated from a "true" doubled die? For example, in the '95 D I show above, the doubled parts appear to be struck slightly "outside" of the final design, so it's a radial difference as opposed to a simple offset or rotation. Would this be the case of machine doubling, where it was struck once and then a second time, and the pressure of the second strike caused the metal to flow slightly more outward?

 

Thanks for the help so far ... 3750 cents down, 1250 left to go! I've found about 20 examples so far of the doubing effect, which I'll go through when I'm done to try to figure out if it's machine doubling or an actual doubled die ... based upon the criteria above.

[WoodenJefferson]

<<In machine doubling, what happens if it actually strikes the coin evenly a second time, in a very slightly different location/rotation? How can that be differentiated from a "true" doubled die? For example, in the '95 D I show above, the doubled parts appear to be struck slightly "outside" of the final design, so it's a radial difference as opposed to a simple offset or rotation. Would this be the case of machine doubling, where it was struck once and then a second time, and the pressure of the second strike caused the metal to flow slightly more outward? >>

 

The strike of a coin happens in a nano second and then is mechanically ejected to accept the next planchet. The dies, obverse and reverse never hit the planchet a second time in business strikes of a true Doubled Die or even in a Machine Doubled coin.

 

The picture shows a 1968-S Cent where the obverse die was impacting the coin and either the hub rotated slightly as pressure was being applied and the die flattened a portion of the primary image into the field. One strike, one set of sheared off numbers/letters due to mechanical problems with the coin press. This is Machine Doubling or Strike Doubling.

 

Errors like this are just one of the reasons coins are periodically inspected for these kinds of defects...an adjustment to the press will correct the problem. With Doubled Die errors the only way to correct the problem is to change out the die itself. Also, any error coins of this nature can be immediately removed and destroyed.

 

Now you know why Doubled Die error coins are so valuable, where as Machine Doubling (especially with high speed presses) is a pretty common occurrence, in all U.S. coin denominations.