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Is this caused from die clash?

Started by robec1347,

36 posts in this topic

robec1347

robec1347

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They are also under In,(IGWT)and the profile is clashed on the other side of the eagle inside the wreath.

Got a pic of the obverse?

 

Thanks for the info. You've got sharp eyes. I couldn't see anything on the obverse. But that doesn't mean anything.

1893cc63obv-1.jpg

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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This tool was produced by Terry Forfa for the Morgan clashes. It is laser-etched and has two discs approximately 5" in diameter connected by a central axis (pop rivet). On the obverse, there is a vertical hash-mark at 12:00 o'clock and a corresponding hash-mark at 6:00 o'clock on the reverse. These enable you to obtain the proper alignment of both sides. Additionally, around the entire perimeter there are hash-marks in 2.4 degree increments to enable you to align rotated dies. I don't know if Terry still has them available, but you can contact him at TJ4FA@hotmail.com for information.

 

Another good reference book is Elite Clashed Morgan Dollars (ISBN # 0-9771886-0-4) by Mark Kimpton. Anyone interested may contact Mark at mark_kimpton@hotmail.com

 

1550155-IMG_1307.JPG1550155-IMG_1308.JPG

 

Chris

1550155-IMG_1308.JPG.680917bd21019e8fd286a98e5cfd6f71.JPG

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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Can anyone tell what the cause of these marks are? 1893ccClash.jpg

Closeup.jpg

Serious Die clashes thumbsup2.gif

 

First, the die appears to have rotated about 3 degrees. Your enlargement on the right shows the clash from the "V-shape" of Liberty's cap and it is doubled. Your enlargement on the left shows the clash from the details beneath the left-hand cotton boll. The small spike that Lou pointed out on top of the eagle's right-hand wing (viewer's left) shows the clash from Liberty's neck. Ordinarily, this mark would extend vertically all the way to the midpoint of the bottom of the "n" in IGWT. On your Morgan, its location is consistent with the rotated die, but it appears that an attempt was made to retool it. The clash that you see to the inside of the left-hand wreath was caused by the bridge of Liberty's nose, and it too, is consistent with the rotated die.

 

All of these clashes are fairly common (but they are neat!), and they don't command a premium. Oftentimes they are used as die markers for more serious clashes or other varieties. When I am looking at a Morgan, it is easy to spot (with the naked eye) the reverse clash from the V-shape of Liberty's cap or a spike on the obverse extending southwest from Liberty's neck (caused by the edge of the eagle's right-hand wing). If I should see one of these clashes, I immediately begin to examine the coin more closely for other areas of clashing. Sometimes you might find part of the "n" of IGWT on the obverse to the left of Liberty's neck (I have four '82-CC's with this) or you may even find the entire profile of Liberty's face on the reverse inside the left-hand wreath. And, if you really get lucky, you may even find a VAM1A with the "E" or "ER" or "BER" of LIBERTY on the reverse between the wreath and the eagle's tailfeathers. This variety could be worth 3-5 times a normal coin for its date and mintmark. Keep looking!

 

Chris

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robec1347

robec1347

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First, the die appears to have rotated about 3 degrees. Your enlargement on the right shows the clash from the "V-shape" of Liberty's cap and it is doubled. Your enlargement on the left shows the clash from the details beneath the left-hand cotton boll. The small spike that Lou pointed out on top of the eagle's right-hand wing (viewer's left) shows the clash from Liberty's neck. Ordinarily, this mark would extend vertically all the way to the midpoint of the bottom of the "n" in IGWT. On your Morgan, its location is consistent with the rotated die, but it appears that an attempt was made to retool it. The clash that you see to the inside of the left-hand wreath was caused by the bridge of Liberty's nose, and it too, is consistent with the rotated die.

 

All of these clashes are fairly common (but they are neat!), and they don't command a premium. Oftentimes they are used as die markers for more serious clashes or other varieties. When I am looking at a Morgan, it is easy to spot (with the naked eye) the reverse clash from the V-shape of Liberty's cap or a spike on the obverse extending southwest from Liberty's neck (caused by the edge of the eagle's right-hand wing). If I should see one of these clashes, I immediately begin to examine the coin more closely for other areas of clashing. Sometimes you might find part of the "n" of IGWT on the obverse to the left of Liberty's neck (I have four '82-CC's with this) or you may even find the entire profile of Liberty's face on the reverse inside the left-hand wreath. And, if you really get lucky, you may even find a VAM1A with the "E" or "ER" or "BER" of LIBERTY on the reverse between the wreath and the eagle's tailfeathers. This variety could be worth 3-5 times a normal coin for its date and mintmark. Keep looking!

 

Chris

 

That is some great information, Chris. 893applaud-thumb.gif Thank you for your in depth analysis of this coin. I'll have to either make or somehow get a hold of a good overlay. I have a hard time putting it together as far as where different clashes originate. I don't think I was to good in those 3d aptitude tests we had in high school.

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IrishMike

IrishMike

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Bob as someone suggested to you on the other forum look under the tail feathers, eagles right out left SE of the arrow feathers for an E, as it appears there may be one there.

 

Also there is what appears to be clashing on the obverse near the bottom of the cap in the field.

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robec1347

robec1347

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Bob as someone suggested to you on the other forum look under the tail feathers, eagles right out left SE of the arrow feathers for an E, as it appears there may be one there.

 

Also there is what appears to be clashing on the obverse near the bottom of the cap in the field.

 

I can see the clash you refer to near the bottom of the cap, but I'm having difficulty seeing the E under the tail feathers. Acually I'm starting to see things that probably aren't even there. Is it possible that there is an D to your right of 1893, above and between the first two stars? Or maybe it's like the clouds and anything can be imagined?

 

I recieved a pm from a member suggesting I post ATS for any other information available. This resulted in my first 3 posts there. Here is the link ATS Link to Die Clash

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robec1347

robec1347

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Here's an overlay I made a while back with an 1883 CC with heavy clash marks

5.311883CCMorganRevClash2.jpg

 

Nice overlay. thumbsup2.gif Do have photos of your 1883 to look at and compare?

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robec1347

robec1347

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Is it possible that there is an D to your right of 1893, above and between the first two stars?
Never mind. I was just looking at the picture when I saw that. After looking at the coin, I can see that it was just one of the marks keeping this from being MS 70. laugh.gif
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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I don't have all of the VAM Updates, but I don't think the '93-CC is known for the VAM1A variety. Bob, with the exception of the date and mintmark, the tool that I mentioned earlier is good for all years of Morgans.

 

Chris

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robec1347

robec1347

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I don't have all of the VAM Updates, but I don't think the '93-CC is known for the VAM1A variety. Bob, with the exception of the date and mintmark, the tool that I mentioned earlier is good for all years of Morgans.

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris,

 

I emailed Terry about the tool, but so far I haven't heard anything. Doesn't surprise me knowing what time of year it is. I did get a reply from Mark on the book though. It will be a nice addition to my not so large (yet) coin library.Thanks again. thumbsup2.gif

 

Thank you Mr.Spud on your images. It was interesting to see not only the similarities but also the differences between our 2 coins. thumbsup2.gif

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robec1347

robec1347

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Here's a quick overlay of yours showing the exact amount of rotation smile.gif

Thank you, MrSpud, for taking the time out to do that. I really appreciate it. thumbsup2.gif

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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Here's a quick overlay of yours showing the exact amount of rotation smile.gif

NGCCLASH.jpg

 

You've rotated about 2-1/2 degrees too much. If you align Liberty's neck with the "spike" on the eagle's right wing (viewer's left) you will be on the money. It will also bring Liberty's nose and the "V-shape" from the cap into the correct alignment.

 

Chris

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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Here's a quick overlay of yours showing the exact amount of rotation smile.gif

NGCCLASH.jpg

 

You've rotated the overlay about 2-1/2 degrees too much. If you align Liberty's neck with the small "spike" extending from the eagle's right wing (viewer's left), you will be on the money.

 

Chris

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MrSpud-migration

MrSpud-migration

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Like this?

 

NGCCLASH2.jpg

 

This one seems to line up the line going up from the eagles wing to liberty's neck and makes the V match up with the clash that is the farthest to the left. The V seems to have clashed twice. The first overlay lined up the V to the rightmost clash wink.gif

Closeup.jpg

 

Even stranger, to get the nose-line + the neckline + the V to match all at the same time, I have to make the coins edges not match up (i.e. one hangs over the edge of the other)?

NGCCLASH3.jpg

Is this possible? I think I am starting to get the double-clashmarks mixed up with each other (i.e. part of the overlay matches the first clash and part the 2nd) I think I'll quit now tongue.gif

 

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