to collectors of japanese coins - let's converse!

[igwood-migration]

I don't know why I didn't think of getting into this kind of community sooner.

 

I collect mostly US coins (I've got a set on the 20th Century Type/Non-proofs only registry), however about 6 months ago I also became intersted in Japanese numismatics.

 

Attached is an image of my prized mito daikoku sen. It's my favorite Japanese coin at present. I've also got a Tora sen among others, and am really interested in challenging the set of 12 coins starting with the famed wado kaichin.

 

Anybody interested in this genre, let's talk.

 

igwood

[igwood-migration]

Sorry, photo didn't attach - second try!

[Hoot]

What an interesting coin igwood. Can you provide an interpretation of obverse and reverse? Also, how does one recognize the date?

 

Hoot

[igwood-migration]

Thanks for your interest Hoot.

 

The characters on the back individually mean, clockwise from the top, long life, compare, south, and mountain. From the internet I gather that this is an old Chinese expression often used in praying for long life. I imagine that maybe "nanzan" (south mountain) is a place associated with long life?

 

According to one of my books on Japanese Numismatics, nothing in the way of documentation exists on this coin to say exactly why it was made, but it was made in 1864 (no date appears on the coin) at the coin foundry in Mito, Japan. It's thought to have originally been given to workers at the mint there as pay but apparently eventually came to be circulated beyond the Mito area.

 

The coin diameter is very close to that of a half dollar.

[toyonakataro]

Hello. Thank you for showing interesting coin....I've been in Japan for a long time and know nothing about Japanese coin

[igwood-migration]

toyonakataro,

 

Perhaps you can tell me something about coin collecting interest in Japan. I don't personally know any Japanese people who collect coins, and there's little if any numismatic reference material even in the larger bookstores in Kyoto where I've looked. The other day a dealer I talked with told me that interest is waning recently. What's your opinion?

 

Thanks,

igwood

[satootoko]

Welcome to the forum Igwood.

That's a beautiful coin, in great condition! Cast in the dying days of the Tokugawa Shogunate it has really survived well. I'm not very knowledgeable about pre-Meiji coinage, and only have a few examples. I specialize in modern (Meiji-Heisei) coinage.

 

How do you happen to be in Kyoto, one of the most beautiful and historic cities of Japan? Unfortunately my last visit was over 25 years ago and yatsu-hashi crackers are very hard to come by anyplace else!

 

The Beautiful Bride and I will be visiting her family in the northeast this fall, and I'm hoping to get a day or two in Tokyo, with a visit to World Coins in Hammamatsucho definitely on the agenda. This will be my first trip to Japan since I moved seriously into this branch of coin collecting.

 

Are you strictly into pre-Meiji, or do you also have a taste for the moderns? My favorites are the Meiji dragon yen/trade dollars, and the high-tech new ¥500 pieces.

[toyonakataro]

igwood

As you mentioned, activity of coin collecting is very low here in Japan. It WAS a popular hobby when I was a kid, but it's long time ago

I neither have someone who collect coins around me...and people call me nuts

Have you ever attended a coin show in Japan?

You can find some serious collectors there(and I saw one of them at ANA show in NY last summer), but most of them are old retired men and you can hardly find youth/kid at a show....sadly this hobby is dying.

 

I remember when I was a kid, Tokyo Olympic silver 1000yen cost 8000-10000yen but now you can get one at 3000yen.

 

P.S-where are you living? I live in Osaka and there's another board member who lives in Tokyo.

[TomB]

Welcome, igwood. I know precious little about Japanese coinage but can recommend Cornelius Vermule's book "Japanese Numismatics". The book is likely out of print and will be difficult to find, however, it also contains quite a bit of information that you may want to read.

 

I only own a handful of Japanese coins but I may end up going there someday to visit my wife's family.

[shirohniichan]

Youkoso, igwood.

 

I collect some pre-Meiji coins, but I prefer early Meiji machine-struck coins. My collection is small right now, and once I have more money I'll work on a type set to replace some of the coins I sold.

[igwood-migration]

Roy,

 

Thanks for the interesting reply.

 

I live about an hour or so from Kyoto by train in Shiga Prefecture, but will relocate to Kyoto because of my job probably this month. I came to Japan about 3.5 years ago and worked as a machine designer in a plant in Kagoshima for about 1.5 years. Then they moved me up here to Shiga to work as a sort of liaison between the customer and my company, and now I’m moving to Kyoto into a pure marketing role. Even before this I was in Japan about 7 years ago on a 1 year internship through a university Japanese language program. At that time I lived in Hirakata between Kyoto and Osaka (toyonakataro would know this one). So I’ve really been around Japan.

 

It’s good that you’ll be getting back to Japan. I’ve been to Hokkaido, but not Northern Honshu. I’d hoped to go this summer but we’ll see. Still plenty of time. It would be nice if you could get time to see Kyoto again too since it’s been 25 years. Arashiyama and Higashiyama are two of my favorite places.

 

I hope your coin hunting in Japan is fruitful. At most of the coin shops I’ve been there are many Meiji Era gold and silver coins, and many in uncirculated condition. I bought a couple of Unc. Meiji 1 yen coins through Ebay and was happy, but waiting for good stuff to come around on Ebay – seems to take forever. The tradeoff is the price I guess.

 

Originally I had no interest in Japanese numismatics. I just thought since I’m a coin collector, and my work is related to Japan, I’m almost obligated to have a few Japanese coins. So I started with the Meiji coins, but then came to find especially the regional coins of the Bakumatsu time frame interesting. The daikokusen of the first post is such a coin. My interest has spread to still earlier coins, and mostly as a means of learning the history. Right now I want to study Nagasaki trade coinage and the Kocho Junisen, i.e wado kaichin, etc. I’m also interested in the Chinese coinage that was circulated in Japan and served as a model for some of the Japanese coinage.

 

I’m not so interested in collecting Meiji coinage at this time, but I really would love to have an uncirculated, nicely toned Japanese trade dollar, and a twin US trade dollar to go with it. That would be a cornerstone of my collection. Unfortunately both are out my price range right now. Something to work for.

 

The thing that I find interesting about the Meiji coinage is that it shows as well as anything else a clear line between Meiji and pre Meiji Japan. That minting technology came from Europe, and I think particularly England. Before that it was mostly casting. Quite an abrupt change. You can read about this kind of thing in history books, but the coins are proof of this that you can hold in your hand and own.

 

The level of Japanese minting technology today is certainly at the highest levels. The 500 Yen coin is interesting, but the level of detail on most of the modern coins is impressive. This is just my opinion, but I wish the US Mint would show a little more sense of craftsmanship. Seems like there was more of that a long time ago.

 

[igwood-migration]

toyonakataro-san,

 

It's unfortunate that coin collecting has declined as a hobby in Japan, but certainly if the prices come down, I'm happy. I think as more non-Japanese people become familiar with Japan, you might see Japanese coins collected more and more frequently abroad. Maybe it just seems that way to me because it's my hobby, but I think most collectors would find Japan's numismatic history very interesting. I also think that coin collecting will make a comeback among Japanese people someday.

 

In fact I visited a dealer today as our plant had the day off, and I learned of a coin show that will be held in Kyoto Sept 26 - 28. I will definitely be there.

 

Why is it that you're interested in US coins? It seems you must have the finest collection in Japan outside the Bank of Japan!

 

 

[igwood-migration]

Tom,

 

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. If I can find the book it would be interesting to see another non-Japanese person's perspective on Japanese numismatics. Do you know how long ago it was written?

 

 

[igwood-migration]

Shiroh,

 

My replies keep getting shorter and shorter - I figure I covered everything in the reply to satootoko.

 

You must have some Japan experience too, looking at your nickname. If you use "youkoso", then I guess I would revise my previous post to "Kouchou Juunisen" and Wadou Kaichin" in my post above. This is the romanization that I learned too.

 

To all who collect Meiji era coins, attached is a photo of my two pieces. The Meiji 35 is NGC MS65, the Meiji 45 is uncertified, but probably a 64. On both coins the field at the end of the dragon's mouth is not frosty, but almost mirror like. The quality of these photos isn't the best, but has anyone seen this with their own one yen coins? Must be due to die wear.

[PQSeated]

Wow, I love the design on those coins. What is the name of the coin? I want to get one!

[igwood-migration]

PQSeated,

 

Attached is O/R of the 1902 (Meiji 35) One Yen silver coin of the previous post. You can find several of these coins at any given time on Ebay under the Asia->Japanese coins category. In terms of size, almost or exactly same diameter as US silver dollar.

[satootoko]

You can find several of these coins at any given time on Ebay

But BEWARE of the many counterfeits - both from contemporary circulation and from modern casting "factories". . The origin of chopmarked coins was the concern of Chinese and other Asian merchants that the trade dollars, yen and other silver coins circulating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were not truly silver of the weight and fineness specified. Many of the counterfeits can be identified solely from pictures and data on size and weight, but many others can't be spotted that way. Singapore, Taiwan and Canada seem to be the major sources of the fakes.

 

Igwood - those are two great specimens of the series. Your die wear theory is as likely as any I've heard.

[shirohniichan]

I’m not so interested in collecting Meiji coinage at this time, but I really would love to have an uncirculated, nicely toned Japanese trade dollar, and a twin US trade dollar to go with it. That would be a cornerstone of my collection. Unfortunately both are out my price range right now. Something to work for.

 

Aye, there's the rub! I collect US trade dollars and would love to get a Japanese counterpart. They're way out of my price range in the grade I want. I'd also like to get an 1860's Hong Kong dollar since the same machinery used to strike them was later used to strike Japanese yen and trade dollars.

 

I lived in Hiroshima for 2 years, Tokyo for a year, then the Hiroshima inaka for another 3 years.

 

Unfortunately, the part of Japanese numismatics that interests me most is from around the Muromachi era. Some day I'd love to own a silver bar from the Iwami Ginzan (a huge silver mine in Shimane Prefecture). I studied about Mouri Motonari for some time, and I'd like a numismatic item from his time and location.

[toyonakataro]

igwood

Kyoto is basically 40minuts drive from my home(although it depends on where the Kyoto-Sangyo-Kaikan is), so I would also like to attend that show, but it'll be only a week after my short trip to Long Beach show....I'm not sure if my wife allow me to go

Please be careful when you buy coins from dealers because many Japanese coins(especially silver coins in Meiji Era) are cleaned and professionally tooled...and overpriced I wish I could share some knowledge on Japanese coins, but all I know is you can't trust Japanese dealers

I don't know why I started collecting U.S coins, but I had been in Buffalo, N.Y for a few years when I was a small kid and it might have some influence.

And I know many people on this forum(world coins forum) don't like slabs, I like that system because it "somehow" protect a novice collector like me from buying problem coins. My collection is small and far from being nice, but I really enjoy them

[igwood-migration]

toyonakataro,

 

Here's a flyer on that show. Sorry about the wrinkles.

 

I'm surprised by how often you find particularly cleaned Meiji era coins here. Even one of my Japanese Numismatics books has coins that appear to have been cleaned on the cover! But then if I weren't a collector maybe I'd be cleaning coins too. When I was a kid a lot of the large cents I had fell victim to one form of cleaning or another.

 

I'd considered struck coins pretty safe until satootoko and shiroh's posts above. Actually on Bidders the other day I saw some Meiji one yen coins that were fakes, and advertised as such, but pretty convincing.

 

By the way, you mentioned not being able to trust Japanese dealers. Do you have an opinion on the JNDA? I only buy from member dealers.

[igwood-migration]

Shiroh,

 

What brought you to Japan for so long? Can you post some of the items in your Japanese collection?

 

 

[toyonakataro]

igwood

Thank you for the map. Karasuma isn't that far away from my home, but sounds like a very small show(10 or so tables) If you have a chance to come to Osaka, a larger show(30-40tables) is held twice a year.....not that impressive show for a foreign coin collector like me, though. I think it's going to be held in Oct. next time.

Funny thing is you can see "gaijin" dealer if you attend that show. He's an American who lives in Tokyo.

 

It's very hard to find toned silver coins from Meiji era....most of them are dipped/cleaned and tooled(very often tooled) and although some dealers do mention the tooling, I have never seen a dealer notifying other problem(cleaning, polishing) on their flip.....I don't know who's JNDA member and who's not, but I have seen many major Japanese dealer's invetories and came to conclusion that I should stay away. Of course, if you have good eyes, there's no problem. But for a novice collector like me, it's much safer to get slabbed Japanese coins from Heritage/B&M auction

The only exception(it's my personal opinion) is "daruma", who's going to attend that show in Kyoto, but they specialize in foreign coins...and a little bit pricey, so they might not bring your attention.

Taro-chan

[shirohniichan]

Here are some of my common but interesting ones:

 

 

I was there from 1987 to '89 on a short term mission with a non-denominational Protestant church, from 1990 to '91 for my last year of undergrad studies, and from 1993 to '96 working for a small town board of education office. I didn't start collecting coins until after I got back to the States.

[toyonakataro]

Shiroh-san

I thought you were in Japan just to attend neruton

[Hoot]

Igwood - Thank you for a very interesting post! It's great to learn about the coin you originally posted, and to see another few, such as the yen you posted.

 

I know nothing of coins from the far east and little of others outside the U.S., but that's the thing about numismatics - always more to learn!!! I am fascinated to learn that coin collecting in Japan is in a lull. Strange, when the Japanese, as I understand, are one of the big buyers of U.S. gold, particularly low MS to choice MS quality Saints. What's the deal? Is it all money and no real interest in collecting?

 

I'd love to see a picture of a Japanese trade dollar! If someone can post one, that'd be great.

 

Thanks again for all the great stuff, all of you.

 

Hoot

[igwood-migration]

Here's the Japan trade dollar (1875)

[igwood-migration]

Shiroh-san,

 

Thanks for posting the photo of those coins. That in itself is a nice collection.

[shirohniichan]

Wowzers! Do you own that trade dollar?!

 

I was looking for an 1875 trade dollar or yen to fill a spot in my 1875 crown collection, but I'll have a far better chance of finding a trade dollar within my budget!

[igwood-migration]

No, I'm sorry to say I don't own it. I was just trying to satisfy the request for an image. After I made the post I thought I should have mentioned it's not mine. Sorry for the false alarm.

[Hoot]

Thanks igwood! What a stunning coin that trade dollar is!

 

Hoot