Your thoughts?

[SkyMan]

I believe this coin is AT. Your thoughts?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Coins-1923-Peace-Dol...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

[Amanda]

For educational purposes, what makes you think it is AT?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-Amanda

[SkyMan]

For educational purposes, what makes you think it is AT?

 

Amanda, those reverse colors are almost an exact duplicate of the infamous Peace dollar of last year. I'm assuming this is the same doctors work. Peace dollars just don't normally look like that. Probably the most common NT Peace dollar toning you would see is a very light golden hue.

[Amanda]

Ah, I see. I think I have only ever seen the obverse side of the Peace Dollar you refer to.

 

Thanks for explaining.

 

-Amanda

[gmarguli]

Looks like a hundred other toned 1922-5 Peace dollars. Photo color is slightly tweaked.

[LuvToCollect]

I really would like to know as I am not skilled in the art of dipping, daubing, drenching, baking or visiting Taco Bell for supplies.

I would be really interested if those who are could critique the coin.

[JJSingleton]

This example certainly does exhibit a similar pattern to the Anaconda Peace Dollar and is suspect in my mind. But I have to see this in hand to really make a determination. Until that time I'll give the benefit of the doubt to those who have seen it in hand.

[midwest]

After making Anaconda whole last year, you'd think they would have learned.

 

How do we know it was slabbed after the Anaconda fiasco?

[MikeInFL]

My thoughts...

 

First, your premise infers that this coin was slabbed subsequent to the Anaconda fiasco, which is an assumption that may well be incorrect.

 

That being said and from what I've seen, it is my impression that NGC could care less about slabbing AT Peace dollars (or other toned coins)...they slab AT coins every day -- even ones they are organizationally aware of as AT. By slabbing a coin NGC does not make a definitive statement concerning NT -vs- AT -- coins are slabbed as "market acceptable" or not. Using large cents as an example, I would estimate that as much as 50% of the coins in NGC holders have had something unnatural done to them.

 

As for this coin, I find it attractive and would buy it -- but only if priced about 10-20% above market price of an untoned 65.

 

All IMHO...Mike

[Mirrored Morgan]

That being said and from what I've seen, it is my impression that NGC could care less about slabbing AT Peace dollars (or other toned coins)...they slab AT coins every day -- even ones they are organizationally aware of as AT.

 

I was not aware that NGC would ever slab AT coins? Is this something that they do knowing that it is an AT coin? Are you sure you have your facts correct on this one?

[MikeInFL]

That being said and from what I've seen, it is my impression that NGC could care less about slabbing AT Peace dollars (or other toned coins)...they slab AT coins every day -- even ones they are organizationally aware of as AT.

 

I was not aware that NGC would ever slab AT coins? Is this something that they do knowing that it is an AT coin? Are you sure you have your facts correct on this one?

 

Yes, I am quite sure of the facts and even more sure of my impressions.

 

I suggest you read up on this forum and ATS on the topic of blue copper (particularly proof IHCs) as one of many examples.

 

A second example would be the Reiver collection, recently sold by Heritage, in which well over 75% of the coins had been worked or had other problems, and many of which were recolored (a form of AT), IMHO.

 

However, I urge you to do some reading and research on the topic and form your own opinion...Mike

[Houston Investor]

How do you really know these are AT in the first place? Perhaps you should start a grading service.

[Bruceswar]

How do you really know these are AT in the first place?

\

 

This brings up the question without an answer. What is AT? and what is not? There is no straight line drawn anywhere. Only a fuzzy one.

[MikeInFL]

How do you really know these are AT in the first place?

 

This brings up the question without an answer. What is AT? and what is not? There is no straight line drawn anywhere. Only a fuzzy one.

 

Bruce hit the nail on the head here...

 

Personally, the TPG I would support would do all in its power to stop AT coins from being slabbed. This means coninuously trying to stay ahead of the doctors, and not ignoring clear evidence of AT coins making their way into their holders.

 

My main gripe with NGC is precisely that it is my impression that they've either chosen to ignore, not believe, or not update their grading policies given the evidence that was presented to them and the status quo and doctoring continues.

 

While market acceptablility will always be the case for TPGs I'm afraid, they should do better with respect to this topic and raise the bar. Unfortunately with TPG's main motivator being profit, they are incented to continue to slab problem coins as tightening of their standards would drive down their profits.

 

Therefore, I believe that the only TPG that will truly watch out for the collector would be a not-for-profit company or a privately held company with a leader that has a higher goal than profit. I won't be holding my breath.

 

Again, IMHO....Mike

[Mirrored Morgan]

Yes, I am quite sure of the facts and even more sure of my impressions.

 

A second example would be the Reiver collection, recently sold by Heritage, in which well over 75% of the coins had been worked or had other problems, and many of which were recolored (a form of AT), IMHO.

 

NGC also graded the "Battle Creek Collection" do you think that these could also be AT?

[Bruceswar]

Yes, I am quite sure of the facts and even more sure of my impressions.

 

A second example would be the Reiver collection, recently sold by Heritage, in which well over 75% of the coins had been worked or had other problems, and many of which were recolored (a form of AT), IMHO.

 

NGC also graded the "Battle Creek Collection" do you think that these could also be AT?

 

These are not AT. Just because it is hoard does not make it AT. I would stand 100% behind these coins.

[michael]

 

My thoughts...

 

First, your premise infers that this coin was slabbed subsequent to the Anaconda fiasco, which is an assumption that may well be incorrect.

 

That being said and from what I've seen, it is my impression that NGC could care less about slabbing AT Peace dollars (or other toned coins)...they slab AT coins every day -- even ones they are organizationally aware of as AT. By slabbing a coin NGC does not make a definitive statement concerning NT -vs- AT -- coins are slabbed as "market acceptable" or not. Using large cents as an example, I would estimate that as much as 50% of the coins in NGC holders have had something unnatural done to them.

 

As for this coin, I find it attractive and would buy it -- but only if priced about 10-20% above market price of an untoned 65.

 

All IMHO...Mike

[MikeInFL]

Yes, I am quite sure of the facts and even more sure of my impressions.

 

A second example would be the Reiver collection, recently sold by Heritage, in which well over 75% of the coins had been worked or had other problems, and many of which were recolored (a form of AT), IMHO.

 

NGC also graded the "Battle Creek Collection" do you think that these could also be AT?

 

MM,

 

I have not studied the Battle Creek Collection in enough detail to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but my sense is they are NT simply because you see other coins with similar coloration from original Morgan bags, and had someone "figured out" how to do this artifically there would be far more fresh ones appearing in the market given the ridiculous prices these coins went (and go) for.

 

However, it is common knowledge that Battle Creek coins -- in which all the toners got the * designation -- were liberally graded in this respect.

 

So while I don't think the Battle Creek Collection are AT, I do feel that NGC "bends its rules" when big collections and certain bulk submitters are concerned.

 

Again, I want to reiterate these are my opinions only and they are based upon personal experience, correspondence, and discussions with others on this topic..Mike

[Bruceswar]

Yes, I am quite sure of the facts and even more sure of my impressions.

 

A second example would be the Reiver collection, recently sold by Heritage, in which well over 75% of the coins had been worked or had other problems, and many of which were recolored (a form of AT), IMHO.

 

NGC also graded the "Battle Creek Collection" do you think that these could also be AT?

 

MM,

 

I have not studied the Battle Creek Collection in enough detail to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but my sense is they are NT simply because you see other coins with similar coloration from original Morgan bags, and had someone "figured out" how to do this artifically there would be far more fresh ones appearing in the market given the ridiculous prices these coins go (went) for.

 

However, it is common knowledge that Battle Creek coins -- in which all the toners got the * designation -- were liberally graded in this respect.

 

So while I don't think the Battle Creek Collection are AT, I do feel that NGC "bends its rules" when big collections and certain bulk submitters are concerned.

 

Again, I want to reiterate these are my opinions only and they are based upon personal experience, correspondence, and discussions with others on this topic..Mike

 

Speaking of bending the rules what about PCGS and the grading on the Omaha Bank Hoard? I think many people feel these coins are graded liberally.

[MikeInFL]

Speaking of bending the rules what about PCGS and the grading on the Omaha Bank Hoard? I think many people feel these coins are graded liberally.

 

Bruce,

 

IMO, the Omaha Bank Hoard is as consistently graded as the rest of the PCGS coins (which is not saying much for moderns). I own two of these coins (both Franklin Halves) and both are fairly graded in my estimation. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise....but am certainly open to differing viewpoints as I don't follow these coins colsely enough to say this with any conviction. I'd love to hear the opinon of someone who follows these coins more closely for their informed opinon.

 

What do you think, being a follower of Washingtons?

 

Take care...Mike

[SkyMan]

How do you really know these are AT in the first place?

 

 

 

Unless a collector has seen a coin from when it was minted until it went into his/her sweaty little hand there is no certainty on what has occured to the coin. I am fairly sure that some coins I've owned that I thought were NT were in fact AT. There are some coins that I bought earlier in my toner collecting career that I bought thinking they were NT and came to believe were AT. For all I know this Peace dollar could be the God's own honest truth NT coin. However, most coin types have fairly standard NT toning, and in a like manner certain "looks" on a coin shout out AT. This pattern TO ME is highly reminiscent to the Anaconda Peace dollar of the last year, and does not look natural. Would I bet my life this is an AT coin? No. Would I bet a reasonably large chunk of change that it is AT? Yes. (This presupposes of course that you could find out the "true" answer).

 

It does bother me that NGC would slab Peace dollars that are "high risk" for being AT. I really like Peace dollars as a design (more so than Morgans) and putting AT cr#p into a slab lowers the value of truly NT Peace dollars. Please note, I am not a purist in the sense that I don't mind if someone AT's a Peace dollar as long as they do an attractive job on it and don't attempt to sell it as a NT coin. I own several Peace dollars that I'm sure are AT, but they are pretty and cost essentially the same as a standard Peace dollar at that grade.

[relicsncoins]

How do you really know these are AT in the first place?

 

 

 

Unless a collector has seen a coin from when it was minted until it went into his/her sweaty little hand there is no certainty on what has occured to the coin. I am fairly sure that some coins I've owned that I thought were NT were in fact AT. There are some coins that I bought earlier in my toner collecting career that I bought thinking they were NT and came to believe were AT. For all I know this Peace dollar could be the God's own honest truth NT coin. However, most coin types have fairly standard NT toning, and in a like manner certain "looks" on a coin shout out AT. This pattern TO ME is highly reminiscent to the Anaconda Peace dollar of the last year, and does not look natural. Would I bet my life this is an AT coin? No. Would I bet a reasonably large chunk of change that it is AT? Yes. (This presupposes of course that you could find out the "true" answer).

 

It does bother me that NGC would slab Peace dollars that are "high risk" for being AT. I really like Peace dollars as a design (more so than Morgans) and putting AT cr#p into a slab lowers the value of truly NT Peace dollars. Please note, I am not a purist in the sense that I don't mind if someone AT's a Peace dollar as long as they do an attractive job on it and don't attempt to sell it as a NT coin. I own several Peace dollars that I'm sure are AT, but they are pretty and cost essentially the same as a standard Peace dollar at that grade.

 

 

Granted you can state with some certainty that various coins tone a certain way. But the fact of the matter is that the metallic composition of a Peace dollar is identicle to that of a Morgan. Since toning is completely dependent upon the environment a coin was stored in and there are litteraly thousands if not 100ds of thousands of combinations to this variable. By your logic, you would automatically throw out any coin that did not fit this "Peace dollar mold". I think each coin should be judged on it's own merit. What if the coin were truly NT, is it fair to the submitter or owner of this coin to automatically call it AT because it doesn't look like a buch of other coins?

 

JJ

[Bruceswar]

Speaking of bending the rules what about PCGS and the grading on the Omaha Bank Hoard? I think many people feel these coins are graded liberally.

 

Bruce,

 

IMO, the Omaha Bank Hoard is as consistently graded as the rest of the PCGS coins (which is not saying much for moderns). I own two of these coins (both Franklin Halves) and both are fairly graded in my estimation. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise....but am certainly open to differing viewpoints as I don't follow these coins colsely enough to say this with any conviction. I'd love to hear the opinon of someone who follows these coins more closely for their informed opinon.

 

What do you think, being a follower of Washingtons?

 

Take care...Mike

 

Mike I have been watching Heritage and other places where these coins come up frequently. I have seen many coins labled MS66 and MS65 that would not fit into my set at all. As with any hoard while the luster may be good, the coins always seem to have a fair amount of hits on them. Granted each coin has its own merits, and each one is different. I feel the overall feel of the hoard is loose at best. I have heard other comment such as "These coins have alot of hits" or "gift grades if you ask me". This is just my opnion based on the Washingtons.

[Denver Dave]

 

The coin in the auction dose not look blatantly AT to me, I would have to see it in hand to judge...

 

Who knows what the Anaconda Coin looks like in hand...

 

The photos are by

 

 

 

[lsica]

NGC's reputation aside, I wouldn't slap an AT or NT label on this coin based on that image

 

1) The actual shade of blues and reds on that coin make a BIG difference. Although I do see some shades of pink on that coin that "make me itch", in hand it might NOT look quite like that.

 

2) How those colors change as you twist the coin in the light makes a BIG difference. Irridescence is DIFFICULT to fake

 

3) How the toning lies on the coin makes a difference. If it looks like it has that "painted across large parts of the coin" look, that'd work against it. If the toning seems as if its "grown" more slowly, that would work for it

 

4) The picture may be "juiced" somewhat, causing the blues and reds on the coin (which I know are whats giving people problems) to not be quite so "loud". Although since the color on the label is fairly flat, it might not be so.

 

So, again, just as "guess the grade from my image" is often a *spoon* shoot, so is "AT or NT" from my image.

[MAULEMALL]

Post deleted by MAULEMALL

[CTcollector1]

For educational purposes, what makes you think it is AT?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-Amanda

 

Check out one of the first "what you need to know posts" on AT/NT characteristics.

[kryptonitecomics]

My thoughts........I am not convinced either way that this Peace dollar is AT or NT from the photos so without holding it in hand I won't pass judgment.

 

As for the BC coins......the star designation was used too liberally.....of that we can be certain but the coins were not graded liberally. How can I say that......well I have personally looked at over 400 coins from the BC collection in hand..........300+ just last year at the FUN show and I found coins that were overgraded, coins that were undergraded....and coins that were accurately graded in fairly equal parts to what I see on the market everyday. I looked through many of these coins with Ron Sirna who has been collecting for at least 2 decades longer than myself and we agreed on coin grades about 95% of the time which is pretty amazing.......and like I said we saw just as many undergraded as we did overgraded so the star is the only thing that should be questioned in reference to this hoard/collection. Their NT vs AT status should also not be questioned but.......that hasn't stopped anybody so I won't waste my time trying to convice anyone of their legitimacy.

[James_OldeTowne]

Call me crazy, but the coin linked in the eBay auction appears to me to be an extraordinarily appealing, stunning and 100% naturally and originally toned coin. It looks nothing like the infamous "Anaconda" coin to me! The linked coin displays all the classic diagnostics of Whitman album (or similar) toning, in my opinion.

 

Personally, I would willingly pay a 300% premium for the coin.

 

However, I disliked the Anaconda coin from the instant I saw it. I wouldn't have touched it no matter what kind of slab (or no slab) it was in.

[MAULEMALL]

...and stars them no less. After making Anaconda whole last year, you'd think they would have learned. Your thoughts?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Coins-1923-Peace-Dol...1QQcmdZViewItem