Let's discuss the "Third Side"

[MikeKing]

John, I'm a little confused. What did you post? Do you have a XXXX IIII combo variety??!!

[lkenefic]

Interesting thread...When I think of "the third side" I'm usually looking at Large Cents and I'm looking for an un-bumped or un-nicked edge. In 2x2s it's next to impossible to view this "side" of the coin.

 

L

[MrEureka-migration]

Is it true that all broadstruck Bust half dollars have plain edges? If so, why?

[GAB]

Woody (I hope you don't mind)

 

Just wondering...then again you just might have a error coin where the lettering was omitted?

Diameter of the 1836 50 C. should be 32.5 mm, weight 13.48 grams

 

This got me thinking??

Do you know how they maintained such a tight spec on the diameter without using collars?

They could probably control the planchet size reasonably well, but it seems like the amount of "spread" during the actual striking would be a variable?

[JRocco]

John, I'm a little confused. What did you post? Do you have a XXXX IIII combo variety??!!

 

Hi Mike- I know the combo is supposed to be the O-108 variety I believe, which is very scarce , but this one is an O-106, but it sure doesn't look like the lllll - lllll edge???

This one has me scratching my head-- maybe if slumlord or one of the other nuts see it they can chime in and help.

[Conder101]

Is it true that all broadstruck Bust half dollars have plain edges? If so, why?

No. Since the bust halves were struck using open collars that did not restrain their expansion you could consider them to ALL be broadstruck. The planchets were all lettered before they were struck, so even if the collar was missing completely the edge of the coin would still be be lettered and not plain. The only way to get a plain edge would be for the blank to miss the Castaining machine or to have the edge altered after it left the mint.

 

Quote:

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Just wondering...then again you just might have a error coin where the lettering was omitted?

Diameter of the 1836 50 C. should be 32.5 mm, weight 13.48 grams

 

 

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This got me thinking??

Do you know how they maintained such a tight spec on the diameter without using collars?

They could probably control the planchet size reasonably well, but it seems like the amount of "spread" during the actual striking would be a variable?

 

They could easily hold to tight specs on the weight because they checked the weight of each coin, but they could not hold to a tight spec on the diameter. That 32.5 mm figure is an average diameter derived from the measurement of a sampling of actual production. If you actually measure the coins you will find that they are all different sizes, but that they cluster around that 32.5 mm figure. A true plain edge coin would be more likely to be larger than the average size since it didn't have its diameter reduced by the Castaining machine and therefor entered the coining chamber already slightly larger in diameter than the average planchet.

[GAB]

Well, I couldn't stand not knowing more, so I went out and bought a scale.

 

Diameter of the 1836 50 C. should be 32.5 mm, weight 13.48 grams.

 

I don't have a good ruler, and it's hard to figure out the "middle", so I did a comparative

analysis. While I was at it, I attributed all of my edges.

Here is the data: (24 coins)

 

Weight:

Min 13.15 grams

Max 13.45 grams

My O-112 - 13.25 grams. 9 weighed the same or less, 14 weighed more.

 

Diameter: with respect to O-112

4 - much wider (half centimeter or more)

17 - wider (about half centimeter)

1 - barely wider (less than half centimeter)

1 - exactly the same diameter

 

14 - E0 FIFTY CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR

3 - E30 FIFTY CENTS HALF A DOLLAR

1 - E11 FIFTY CENTS OALF A DOLLAR

1 - E4 FIFTY CENTS OHALF A DOLLAR

1 - E23 FIFTY CENTS LF A DOLLAR

1 - E16 FIFTY CENTS ORLF A DOLLAR

1 - E46 Y CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR

1 - UN READABLE, BUT SOMETHING??

1 - E58 no lettering

 

An interesting note: Several of the non E0 coins had an obvious star somewhere on

the edge. It's almost like star notes in currency ? I have not read anything about

that anywhere.

 

So - I would still say it is inconclusive as to whether my O-112 is truly an error coin,

that did not receive any lettering. As well as I can tell thru my 5X magnifying

glass, it does not look like anyone filed it, and I cannot find even a hint of a letter.

 

Since none of them weighed the specified amount - I guess none of them are uncirculated. (a few were close at 32.4+ grams, and they are the better looking ones)

The rest have all lost mass due to wear over the last 170 years !!

 

All in all, it was a pretty interesting way to spend a cold day indoors.

[Conder101]

I take it that when you say centimeter you really mean millimeter?

 

A half centimeter would be nearly a quarter of an inch in English units and I REALLY don't believe you have coins that vary in diameter by a quarter inch.

 

So - I would still say it is inconclusive as to whether my O-112 is truly an error coin,

that did not receive any lettering.

I don't know, the odds don't look too good to me. As I said in my earlier post, if the blank isn't run through the Castaining machine and compressed between the edge dies, it would be going between the dies already wider than the typical planchet. Yet your measurements show something like 23 out of 24 coins being wider than the plain edge piece. Now if the plain edge starts out wider, I could see a couple or maybe even a few finished coins ending wider than the plain edge coin, but not 96% of them.

[GAB]

Whoops,

 

You are correct - I meant MILLIMETERS.

When I center the smallest inside the largest - there is nearly a half mm showing

all the way around - which would make the max spread probably just under 1mm

in diameter.

I agree with your "odds" theory, but not necessarily the short denticles, or the denticles

going clear to the edge. As I look over all the 24 different varieties that I have unslabbed,

most go all the way to the edge, and 3 or 4 have even shorter denticles than the O-112.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough duplicates to see if the varieties are fairly constant in

denticle size. (Not to mention the fact that several are off centered, and a couple of the varieties barely have ANY visible denticles !!)

One thing I thought of was maybe the planchet itself was small, so the Castaing didn't

get on tight enough to make the letters. But, the one I have that is the same size has

nice lettering, so that theory doesn't hold much water either!

Based on the way the edge looks (smooth as a nickel!) - somebady had to work pretty

hard to get it so uniform and smooth, and still keep it within tolerance. They sure didn't

make much for all their efforts, at least from me ! ($75 for a fairly detailed Busty)

My next trick will be to take it into work where I can get some real magnification.

 

My "lab" book:

 

[MrEureka-migration]

Broadstrike with a plain edge. Ex: Logan Collection.

 

[IGWT]

Is it true that all broadstruck Bust half dollars have plain edges? If so, why?

 

This is a great thread that seems to have everything except an answer to these two questions. Also, I don't understand how a coin can qualify as broadstruck when it's struck in an open collar.

[Conder101]

I answered those about five posts back.

 

I agree with you about "how can you tell if they are broadstruck if they are using an open collar?" Frankly I don't think can unless the coin has been able to expand to WELL beyond normal size, and even that would probably take more than one strike.

[IGWT]

I answered those about five posts back.

 

I agree with you about "how can you tell if they are broadstruck if they are using an open collar?" Frankly I don't think can unless the coin has been able to expand to WELL beyond normal size, and even that would probably take more than one strike.

 

Sorry, Mike; there are so many posts to this thread that I overlooked your response. I agree that it seems unlikely -- for the reasons you state -- that all "broadstruck" coins are missing lettered edges. But, Andy's question implies a correlation of some sort.

[Conder101]

But, Andy's question implies a correlation of some sort.

Probably the confusion comes because since we are normally dealing with coins struck from close collars, which impress the reeding on the coin during the strike, we are used to the thought that if the coin is broadstruck the edge will not be impressed and would therefor always be plain. And that line of reasoning is correct for all US coins except the lettered edge halves and dollars.