A Coin Shop (not so) Hypothetical- Fake Coins

[Amanda]

Suppose you enter your local coin shop one afternoon, you're not there for any reason, just to browse (and pick up the latest State Quarters) when you happen upon some Trade Dollars in the display case. Now, you have been reading about Trade Dollars recently and trying to learn how to recognize fake ones.

 

The nice lady who runs the shop hands you three coins, a 77-CC, a 73-CC and a 73-S. They are all priced out of your range, but looking is fun and the nice lady likes you and frequently lets you browse to your heart's content.

 

As you examine the coins, your heart sinks. The 73-S is an obvious fake, the fields are rough and the letters sink into the field and are not crisp and well-defined. Not to mention that by appearances alone the coin doesn't look to have a snowball's chance of passing the ring test.

 

The 77-CC also looks to be of questionable origins, as the stars do not have properly defined centers and Lady Liberty looks a little off. The kicker is the reverse, the eagle has a berry beneath it's left talon, thus making it a Type 1 reverse while all 77's and later had Type 2, berry-free reverses.

 

The 73-CC seems genuine, ableit cleaned, but it's priced far beyond your means anyways.

 

But the matter of the fake coins remains. Just what do you do? It does not appear that the elderly couple running the shop knows that they are fake coins, so they are not trying to rip anyone off.

 

Do you tell them, in their shop full of customers, hope they take it well and not ban you from future visits?

 

Do you forget that the fake coins exist, glad that you know enough to keep yourself from getting ripped off?

 

Something else?

 

Yes, this just happened. I felt so terrible that I just politely said "Not today on the Trade Dollars, but thank you for letting me look," and left. The shop was really busy and I didn't want to embarrass them.

 

How do you tactfully point out that they are fake?

 

-Amanda

[SuperDave]

Either in person when they're not busy, or later by telephone. It sounds like you have a good relationship with them, and I think friendship requires that you act on your knowledge.

[MarkFeld]

Do you tell them, in their shop full of customers, hope they take it well and not ban you from future visits?

Find a way to discreetly tell them what you think or know AND how you reached your conclusions Then point them to sources that will allow them to see for themselves that the coins are counterfeits. They should be appreciative, and whether they are or not, you will know you tried to help.

[BillJones]

Do you tell them, in their shop full of customers, hope they take it well and not ban you from future visits?

Find a way to discreetly tell them what you think or know AND how you reached your conclusions Then point them to sources that will allow them to see for themselves that the coins are counterfeits. They should be appreciative, and whether they are or not, you will know you tried to help.

 

Mark has pretty well summed it up here. The only thing you can do is respectfully tell them that you suspect the coins are not genuine.

 

I had even more difficult situation many years ago in the 1970s. I was the secretary of a local club. The treasurer was selling counterfeit gold dollars to the president of the club. The president would walk into a club meeting and start showing the thing around. At first I just nodded my head and decided to lay low, but then when he bought another one, I finally had to tell him. These counterfeits were really bad. They were cast copies, and some of them even had tails on them from mold that had been used to cast them.

 

The most disturbing part aspect of this was that the treasurer KNEW the coins were counterfeit, and was selling them to make a quick profit. The problem was the treasurer, who was the real power in the club, had been one of the founders and had a lot of clout. Needless to say I immediately became persona non grata at that club for a couple years until the treasurer pulled another stunt by taking the club’s show (the main fundraiser) away for himself.

 

Still trying to inform people that they have purchased or are offering a counterfeit coin is a sticky business that has be handled with some tact.

[Amanda]

What if I'm wrong in thinking they are fake?

 

I'm no expert, and they have been running this shop since the 60s.

 

-Amanda

[MarkFeld]

What if I'm wrong in thinking they are fake?

 

I'm no expert, and they have been running this shop since the 60s.

 

-Amanda

Amanda, if you're wrong, but speak and act in your typical enthusiastic and conscientious manner in an attempt to help, there shouldn't be much downside. And there is the upside of you're being right. The fact that "they have been running the shop since the 60s" doesn't necessarily reflect upon whether the coins are genuine or not.

[BillJones]

Just because someone has been in business for a long time does not mean that that they are really good at it. There are also pockets of expertise. If you have collected U.S. coins for 40 years and then one day decide to get into ancient coins, there were be a learning period. You won't be an instant expert.

 

And sadly some people lose their ability to do things as they grow older. It's a sad fact of life.

 

There are also people who remain the business who are not ethical So saying that that your company has been around since The War of the Roses does not cut much ice with me. I have to look at the what the coin company is doing today.

[Amanda]

Thanks guys.

 

I was pretty sure telling them what I thought was the right thing to do, I just wasn't quite sure how to go about it. They are closed for the weekend, now, and won't open until Tuesday. I'll have to ask my dad to take me back then. I will make sure I have my Redbook and Counterfeit Detection Guide with me so I can point out why I think that way.

 

I have never knowingly encountered fake coins for sale priced like real ones before (in person) and I just wasn't sure how to handle it.

 

Thanks for the guidance.

 

-Amanda

[Stanley]

Amanda, If they have been in business since the 60s and are of the right character, then they should have no problem with a YN or any other customer engaging them in discussion over any of there products.

 

If you feel up to speaking to them about your thoughts, you have more to gain than to loose. And besides, I’m sure you could handle the situation.

 

Edit: grammar correction

[LostDutchman-migration]

as a shop owner... I respect peoples opinions about my coins.. I may not always agree but I will listen to a concern... In the case of the trade dollars... I think it is the shops responsibility to be able to identify fake trade dollars... and if they do not...(or sometimes knowingly put them in their cases) they should expect to be asked about them... my 2 cent piece

[construct]

I recently saw a couple of trade dollars that I thought were suspicious being offered at a show. The dentils on these looked like beads rather than teeth. I politely asked the dealer how he had authenticated them. He said that he had done nothing to authenticate them. He hadn't weighed them or anything. He was depending on his seller for the authentication. He asked why I was concerned. So I just said something like, "Well, you know, there are an awful lot of counterfeit trade dollars on the market these days." This, he said, was news to him. I assured him that it was so and encouraged him to look into how to authenticate them. Then I dropped the subject and moved on to other things.

 

Had I been certain they were counterfeits, I hope I would have been a bit more assertive, but I just wasn't sure. It turned out that the dealer wasn't sure either.

[TomB]

Please make certain that when or if you approach them that you do so in an honest, open, non-judgmental way that would make it difficult for one to interpret your actions as an accusation instead of as a concern. Also, bring with you whatever source material that you may have in order to share this with them, as well as online URLs that might help. Truthfully, if they have been in business this long and if the pieces are below average counterfeits then I would wonder how they would get past them without their knowledge.

[RWB]

Amanda.

The sad truth is that a large percentage of "coin dealers" are ignorant. Many do not know the basics of counterfeit identification and often don't care to know so long as they can sell enough material to the uninformed to stay in business. A large quantity of old fakes still lie below the surface of TPG coins, and new counterfeits seem to pop up weekly.

 

You have had the fortune to spend some time helping a knowledgeable dealer at a recent show, but they are the exception. This is why it is important to know what you plan to buy and thoroughly understand the nuances of each variety.

 

As for the shop you visited, I agree with the others about what you did and how t let the owner know of the problem coins discretely. After your call, visit the shop again and see if the same or similar fakes are still there – if so, you know that it is probably not a business worth patronizing.

[LostDutchman-migration]

Amanda.

The sad truth is that a large percentage of "coin dealers" are ignorant. Many do not know the basics of counterfeit identification and often don't care to know so long as they can sell enough material to the uninformed to stay in business. A large quantity of old fakes still lie below the surface of TPG coins, and new counterfeits seem to pop up weekly.

 

You have had the fortune to spend some time helping a knowledgeable dealer at a recent show, but they are the exception. This is why it is important to know what you plan to buy and thoroughly understand the nuances of each variety.

 

As for the shop you visited, I agree with the others about what you did and how t let the owner know of the problem coins discretely. After your call, visit the shop again and see if the same or similar fakes are still there – if so, you know that it is probably not a business worth patronizing.

 

 

 

I agree I have had other dealers try to sell me counterfeit coins that they did not know were fakes... gotta do your homework... I have a massive library of books on detecting fakes... it's the only way to go...at least for me

[Amanda]

I really don't want to come off as accusatory, that's for certain.

 

Thanks for all of the advice!

 

-Amanda

[lclugza]

I once saw a Lincoln cent at a flea market; it was a 1914D... Er, it was a 19 14D that had been altered from a 1944D. I didn't say anything about it- I guess now I should have mentioned it to someone.

[JJSingleton]

Thanks guys.

 

I was pretty sure telling them what I thought was the right thing to do, I just wasn't quite sure how to go about it. They are closed for the weekend, now, and won't open until Tuesday. I'll have to ask my dad to take me back then. I will make sure I have my Redbook and Counterfeit Detection Guide with me so I can point out why I think that way.

 

I have never knowingly encountered fake coins for sale priced like real ones before (in person) and I just wasn't sure how to handle it.

 

Thanks for the guidance.

 

-Amanda

Amanda, Be sure to take a thick skin with you too, and please let us know how it goes. I am very interested in hearing the rest of the story.

[Houston Investor]

They may already know the coins are fake and not be at all pleased if you point it out. At a show they might be thrown off the bourse for having fake material but in their own shop they would probably try to laugh you out the door then when no one was looking sneak the fakes back into the safe until the fiasco blew over and reset the trap for some poor unspecting collector.

 

I have a book on fake world gold coins and fakes can look very convincing unless you are expert enough to look for the right diagnostic. Buying raw coins has its pitfalls.

[Amanda]

I forgot about this thread.

 

This has been a busy week for my dad and me, what with Mommy's surgery and all.

 

He said he will try to find time to take me tomorrow, though, and I will let you guys know!

 

-Amanda

[jgrinz]

You being a YN it may give you and them learning experience.

 

Sounds as if you are on goods terms with this place so what I would do if I was in your shoes ...

 

Bring all the materials you can find on the subject of Counterfiet Trade dollars. Ask that you may speak to them in private , let them know of your suspicions and suggest that you and they sit down together and go through your materials ( scales and calipers if you have them, size and weight are a giveaway on these also ) with the coins in hand to compare them to the documentation. Have recent articles with you about the China Copies which they may not know about. You both can learn on this one, being fake OR real.They will appreciate your time and concern

 

Mike

[Conder101]

So I just said something like, "Well, you know, there are an awful lot of counterfeit trade dollars on the market these days." This, he said, was news to him. I assured him that it was so and encouraged him to look into how to authenticate them.

They must have been living a very sheltered life. It has been known since at least the early 1970's, and probably long before that, that a tremendous number of the trade dollars offered on the market were fakes (probably 25 to 30 percent). Even back before the advent of the certification services you never bought a trade dollar without having it checked out by an expert because there were so many fakes. Since slabbing the percentage of raw trades that are fakes has gone way up, and they recent flood of fakes from China now means that almost every trade dollar offered raw is a fake (>80 - 90%). There are still so genuine rawtrades offered out there,but you will have to wade through a ton of fakes tofind them.

[cpm9ball]

Amanda, you don't need me to repeat what everyone has said, and I am in complete agreement with them. If you're trying to find a tactful way to broach the subject, you might begin by stating, "I've read so much about counterfeit Trade Dollars being made in Asia that I'm almost afraid to even think about buying any. How can you tell if they are geniune or fake?" Tell them that you brought a book along to use as a guide, and you would appreciate their help.

 

By the way, if after you and they have inspected the coins and you "discover" that some or all are fake, you should act as surprised as I'm sure they should be.

 

Chris

[Amanda]

My dad took me back to the coin shop this afternoon. We arrived about a half an hour before closing, and the shop was empty! This was good.

 

I went to the case and looked for the Trade Dollars, and one of my suspected fakes (the 73-S) was gone! Sold or removed, I didn't ask. I did feel badly, though.

 

But the 77-CC was still there. I asked to see it, and I was checking it against the book I had brought, and sure enough it was indeed a type one coin when it should have been a type two. I guess I looked upset, so the man who is going to own the shop soon came over to ask if he could help me. I said I just wasn't sure about this trade dollar, and I started explaining about the Type One reverse that it had, and why it shouldn't have had it. He had never heard of the different reverses before, but after examining the coin and comparing it to the 73-CC that he also had, he agreed that the reverses matched, and according to the Redbook they shouldn't.

 

He thanked me for pointing it out and said he planned on showing it to Mr. Fivaz to see what he thought.

 

He said they had to be really careful with Trade Dollars because so many fake ones exist. They weigh all of the ones that come into the shop, and he said the 77-CC was the proper weight.

 

So I was able to teach him something new about trade dollars, and he was very appreciative.

 

I was so very worried about this, and it turned out fine.

 

Thanks for the wonderful advice, guys!

 

-Amanda

[Utahcoin]

You tell them. And tell them how you know, but do it as to not embarrass them. In this case it sounds like they don't know.

 

A little over a year ago at the Las Vegas ANA Coin/Gun show there was a gun seller with some fake Trade Dollars in his case. We told him, he blew us off, and the "officials" at the show would do nothing about it.

 

Wes Chormicle

Allgood Coin

St George, Utah

[Amanda]

I can't believe the show officials wouldn't do anything about it!

 

-Amanda

[cpm9ball]

I can't believe the show officials wouldn't do anything about it!

 

-Amanda

 

Gun-toting good ole boys! Keep yer paws off'n mah still, y'hear!

 

Chris

[Houston Investor]

What if they just say "get the heck outta my shop" - what are you going to do then?

[Amanda]

What if they just say "get the heck outta my shop" - what are you going to do then?

 

If you read my post a few posts above, you will see that in this particular example, they did not.

 

-Amanda

[Conder101]

What if they just say "get the heck outta my shop" - what are you going to do then?

Probably get out of the shop. And let as many people know as I can that the shop owner does not mind selling counterfeits even after they have been pointed out to him.

[Houston Investor]

I have seen a some of suspicious raw Trade Dollars on the bourse lately at shows. I would never buy these coins raw. These coins are in 2x2 staple holders with other raw collector coins in one of those plastic sheet 3 ring notebook pages - you know 20 coins to a sheet. There might be 1 or 2 of these Trade Dollars on a sheet mixed with other raw coins (there were also some cleaned Barbers, Morgans, etc. marked "Ch BU" and then the rest just circ stuff). A guy at the table next to me apparrently had some of these and when somebody mentioned to him "you know a lot of these Trade Dollars are counterfeit" he replied rather firmly "well mine are genuine" and later on told the guy "hey if you are not gonna buy anything get away from my table."

 

I think his strategy would be to run someone off at any sign of trouble and then hide the coin sheet in a book or something in case someone came over to investigate. Greed will keep these people trying to pan this stuff to some unknowing collector.