Am I a coin doctor?

[MAULEMALL]

You have aquaintances ATS that continuously shill bid every auction they run on EBAY and when they get caught and suspended, you just blow it off and make excuses for them like it's nothing because they are in your "circle of trust". You know, and i know it. The same people are still shill bidding today. YOU know it and i KNOW it.

Excaliber, who are they and how do you know they are shilling? Thanks.

 

Mark, you know perfectly well it is OK for people to make accusations and for the accused to have to prove his innocence. If you need proof of this, re-read this thread. Without naming names, as you should be able to clearly see, accusations were pointed at someone without proof and someone asked him to confirm/deny the accusation without any proof provided.

[jom]

>>>>>What's pathetic about asking a simple question?

 

Nothing.

 

>>>>>Am I pathetic because I wish to understand where these ATed coins come from and try and educate others?

 

Educate about what exactly? That the coin market is full of shills and misrepresentation? If so, you might want to start with the TPG's.

 

>>>>>Am I pathetic because I speak out against coin doctors, those who peddle their wares, and those who shill their auctions?

 

Shill? What does it matter if there is a shill bid? If you are buying just bid to what you feel it's worth. The problem is many simply do NOT know what these coins are worth. IMO, they should NOT be buying coins. Period. There's something to educate buyers on.

 

>>>>>Am I pathetic because I speak out against TPGs that certify known AT coins as market-acceptable yet lead the public to believe otherwise?

 

Again, why does it matter? If you like the damn coin, buy it. Otherwise go on to the next auction. It's not as if many coins that "most" think are real are in fact AT and have been for decades. At this point it's way beyond what's "real" and what's not.

 

>>>Am I pathetic because I feel badly for those who own NT coins that are now worth less because of the actions of these doctors, peddlers, and TPGs?

 

Worth less or just the correct price? Is it logical that some coins get idiotic prices based on color? For that matter, does it make sense buyers pay huge premiums for SMALL differences in grade? Where is the coin posse for helping buyers learn about that? IMO, that is a FAR worse problem that no one seems to want to address.

 

>>Am I pathetic because I believe people should be honest and not decieve when profit is their motive?

 

I do not think you are being "pathetic" at all but I just see a lot bigger problems in the market than someone coloring coins. Which, I might point out, has been happening for years and years. Many example of which have resided in certified plastic long before purple IHC's came along.

 

jom

[gmarguli]

For that matter, does it make sense buyers pay huge premiums for SMALL differences in grade? Where is the coin posse for helping buyers learn about that?

 

They're right there. They're the ones putting together the Registry Sets for the buyers.

[jom]

They're right there. They're the ones putting together the Registry Sets for the buyers.

 

Yeah, but they get to post their set on top that beats out the 2nd place guy by 0.002 grade points and pay $5000 for an MS69 Kennedy half for the privilege. That's called FREEDOM...my friend....FREEDOM!

 

 

jom

[Oldtrader3]

I threw in the towel and got off this #1 registry set treadmill awhile ago (not that I ever was seriously in contention). I have decided that I am going to have fun and enjoy this hobby regardless and at whatever level I am able to participate and be comfortable with. I think most of us here are here because we enjoy the hobby and many here are doing their own collecting thing regardless of the few dealers or titans of the various registry sets.

 

The "coin posse" is alive and well here with many members warning collectors about getting caught up in a registry set escalation within which they can not compete. Some people just don't hear them.

[MikeInFL]

>>>>>Am I pathetic because I wish to understand where these ATed coins come from and try and educate others?

 

Educate about what exactly? That the coin market is full of shills and misrepresentation? If so, you might want to start with the TPG's.

 

>>>>>Am I pathetic because I speak out against coin doctors, those who peddle their wares, and those who shill their auctions?

 

Shill? What does it matter if there is a shill bid? If you are buying just bid to what you feel it's worth. The problem is many simply do NOT know what these coins are worth. IMO, they should NOT be buying coins. Period. There's something to educate buyers on.

 

>>>>>Am I pathetic because I speak out against TPGs that certify known AT coins as market-acceptable yet lead the public to believe otherwise?

 

Again, why does it matter? If you like the damn coin, buy it. Otherwise go on to the next auction. It's not as if many coins that "most" think are real are in fact AT and have been for decades. At this point it's way beyond what's "real" and what's not.

 

>>>Am I pathetic because I feel badly for those who own NT coins that are now worth less because of the actions of these doctors, peddlers, and TPGs?

 

Worth less or just the correct price? Is it logical that some coins get idiotic prices based on color? For that matter, does it make sense buyers pay huge premiums for SMALL differences in grade? Where is the coin posse for helping buyers learn about that? IMO, that is a FAR worse problem that no one seems to want to address.

 

>>Am I pathetic because I believe people should be honest and not decieve when profit is their motive?

 

I do not think you are being "pathetic" at all but I just see a lot bigger problems in the market than someone coloring coins. Which, I might point out, has been happening for years and years. Many example of which have resided in certified plastic long before purple IHC's came along.

 

jom

 

Thanks for your respectful and thought provoking reply, Jom. To address the questions and issues you raise...

 

Educate about what exactly?

 

Educate about which "looks" to be wary of. Educate which sellers to beware of. And I agree, the TPGs are as much to blame, however they were not the topic of this thread.

 

What does it matter if there is a shill bid?

 

It is all about honesty. If there's nothing wrong with shill bidding, why do many auction houses specifically identify it as an inappropriate action and professional numismatic associations frown upon it? I understand and fundamentally agree with your point that ulitmately it is up to the bidder to be responsible in their actions, but artifically bidding up an item is simply wrong.

 

In retrospect, shilling is something that I should have never mentioned, as it is really not pertinent to the issues raised in this thread and distracted and diminished the message.

 

Again, why does it matter [that TPGs slab known AT coins]?

 

It matters because they lead people to believe that it is not the case. It matters because they are hurting the hobby -- turning off collectors who want nothing more than an accurate and honest appraisal on a coin and a clear and accurate description of the services they are in-fact providing. Don't do one thing and say another -- AT, First Strike, etc.

 

Worth less or just the correct price? Is it logical that some coins get idiotic prices based on color? For that matter, does it make sense buyers pay huge premiums for SMALL differences in grade? Where is the coin posse for helping buyers learn about that? IMO, that is a FAR worse problem that no one seems to want to address.

 

Worth less -- I think you may have missed my point -- remember I'm talking about the real NT coins that are now "guilty by association".

 

As far as conditional rarity and the huge premiums paid by many for top-population or upper-population coins, you have a good point, particularly if the only difference between the coins is a subjective opinion of a TPG and much of the value in these coins is caused by their registry sets. However, to imply that high-grade coins in and of themselves would not be worth more is to impugn the free market for such coins, and I'm not ready to blame someone for wanting to pay a lot of money for a coin that is rare because of its state of preservation.

 

I do not think you are being "pathetic" at all but I just see a lot bigger problems in the market than someone coloring coins. Which, I might point out, has been happening for years and years. Many example of which have resided in certified plastic long before purple IHC's came along.

 

What problems are bigger than those raised in this thread? I'd really like to know if for no other reason than to avoid them.

 

Also, why is doctoring coins any less egregious because it has been happening forever. So has murder, theft, and lying -- does that make them any more palatable or morally right?

 

Take care...Mike

[MarkFeld]

Jom/John, I think Mike's reply was excellent. I will only add, in response to your questions, that apathy (which was part of the theme of your post, even though I think you do care) will allow the hobby to continue to head in the wrong direction.

[IGWT]

Greg and others have read questions by Mark & Mike as accusations. I don't see it that way; but, I certainly understand that we each look at issues from perspectives that often differ. That said, one thing still bothers me: Why would anyone interpret the questions as accusations if he truly believes that there is nothing wrong with "curating" the color onto proof copper? I've never taken offense at being accused of doing the right thing.

[gmarguli]

Greg and others have read questions by Mark & Mike as accusations. I don't see it that way; but, I certainly understand that we each look at issues from perspectives that often differ. That said, one thing still bothers me: Why would anyone interpret the questions as accusations if he truly believes that there is nothing wrong with "curating" the color onto proof copper? I've never taken offense at being accused of doing the right thing.

 

I was accused of shilling the auction, not curating the coin. I was accused of shilling without proof.

 

As for the coins themselves, I hope Mark isn't going to accuse me of making them without any proof. After all, he held a class on making them for many months and there were lots of students out there. Mark is likely more responsible for more blue copper out there than me.

[IGWT]

After all, he held a class on making them for many months and there were lots of students out there. Mark is likely more responsible for more blue copper out there than me.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

[MarkFeld]

Greg and others have read questions by Mark & Mike as accusations. I don't see it that way; but, I certainly understand that we each look at issues from perspectives that often differ. That said, one thing still bothers me: Why would anyone interpret the questions as accusations if he truly believes that there is nothing wrong with "curating" the color onto proof copper? I've never taken offense at being accused of doing the right thing.

 

I was accused of shilling the auction, not curating the coin. I was accused of shilling without proof.

 

As for the coins themselves, I hope Mark isn't going to accuse me of making them without any proof. After all, he held a class on making them for many months and there were lots of students out there. Mark is likely more responsible for more blue copper out there than me.

Greg, if asking you a question is identical to accusing you of something, than I am guilty.

 

I don't know if you artificially toned those coins or not. They simply look similar to others you have "curated" and I have no doubt that others are doing the same or something similar.

 

I presume the remainder of your post above was written to make a point of some type and or was meant to be humorous, but it escapes me.

[cpm9ball]

"Kicking a dead horse"

 

"Water over the dam"

 

"Blood out of a turnip"

 

"Let a sleeping dog lie"

 

Do any of these ring a bell?

 

Chris

 

PS. "If you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra

[gmarguli]

Greg and others have read questions by Mark & Mike as accusations. I don't see it that way; but, I certainly understand that we each look at issues from perspectives that often differ. That said, one thing still bothers me: Why would anyone interpret the questions as accusations if he truly believes that there is nothing wrong with "curating" the color onto proof copper? I've never taken offense at being accused of doing the right thing.

 

I was accused of shilling the auction, not curating the coin. I was accused of shilling without proof.

 

As for the coins themselves, I hope Mark isn't going to accuse me of making them without any proof. After all, he held a class on making them for many months and there were lots of students out there. Mark is likely more responsible for more blue copper out there than me.

Greg, if asking you a question is identical to accusing you of something, than I am guilty.

 

I don't know if you artificially toned those coins or not. They simply look similar to others you have "curated" and I have no doubt that others are doing the same or something similar.

 

I presume the remainder of your post above was written to make a point of some type and or was meant to be humorous, but it escapes me.

 

Yes Mark, coming out of nowhere and asking a question based on an unsubstantiated accusation is the same as accusing me. At least in my opinion it is.

 

As for the second part of my post, based on the number of people who contacted me asking for more specifics on blue copper and the number of people who have posted about their experiments, I think that your crusade against them has caused a lot of people to start to try and make them. That's why I said there is more blue copper out there thanks to you than me.

[WinstonWare]

Blood out of a turnip

 

I agree with Chris. Might be time to let this go until the next “controversial” thread.

[Houston Investor]

This is conservation. Quite a good job too. Way to go. Looks superb!

 

Looks like its ready for a flip or 2 x 2 to put in your case with a price on it.

[JJSingleton]

Interesting thread. Very reminiscent of many ATS threads. I don't know all the players here so I don't know if Hoot's intentions were to really get folks opinions on his own coin and activities or whether it was to open the can to let the worms out to play.

 

I'll give Hoot the benefit of the doubt, and here is my opinion on his original question:

 

Many of your actions with the coin are consistent with those actions of coin doctors. However, the coin is your property and you are entitled to do what you wish with your property. I don't agree with your actions, but you certainly have the right. And as long as what you do with your coin is for your personal enjoyment you are not a coin doctor. To meet my definition of a coin doctor, you must have the intent to sell the coin after the alteration(s) for financial gain. Whether the gain is actualized is irrelevant.

 

Now to the worms released from the can:

 

Based upon my definition, there are others who have posted to this thread who are clearly coin doctors. And as such, I have no respect for them or anything they may post on the topic.

[BobaFett72-migration]

your quite a good Doctor, you saved this coins life

 

Your family doctor should be as competent as you.

[Hoot]

Thanks to the recent poster who brought this thread back on track and addressed the central issue.

 

I'm quite happy to have the coin in my collection.

 

Hoot

[1798CentCollector-migratio]

Bravo, Hoot. I hope you make it to the EAC Convention in 2007 and I will personally award you the 2007 Copper Lifesaving Medal of honor. This coin was terminal and - scudzy, bent, verdigris, corrosion, and grease. I'm impressed with the effort and method you employed to remove the diseases and really give it back some originally and restore it to a condition that can be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hoot]

I will personally award you the 2007 Copper Lifesaving Medal of honor.

 

 

Although, I probably won't be lookin' too good in 2207. (Things are bad enough in 2007!)

 

Hoot

[Houston Investor]

If you were gonna put this coin in your case at a show say in a 2x2 - what would you grade it (looks fine) and what would be your ask price? I have a note book of raw coins in 2x2's in the 20 coin plastic sheets - these stack nicely in my case at shows. While my inventory is mainly slabs, raw coins are fun too (as a matter of fact I make a bigger margin on them than slabs - go figure)..

 

Nice coin - a super job of conservation. Question is - would a gradings service slab it?

 

How would you retone a seated 1877cc quarter - it looks nice, no cleaning marks, but looks dipped with some lt tone. Would luv to get a little more tone on it to avoid the dipped look. It is vf-xf and I have it in my special raw coin collectors book priced at $125.

[Hoot]

If you were gonna put this coin in your case at a show say in a 2x2 - what would you grade it (looks fine) and what would be your ask price?

 

Question is - would a gradings service slab it?

 

Howdy Parker - I'd grade it what I believe it is - VG10 details, VG08 net, A-. My ask would be $350. But alas, it's not for sale.

 

As for the TPGs, it would BB for "environmental damage" or "corrosion" or some such thing. Besides, the surfaces are now too well kept to pass their "gotta look like hell" test for slabbing.

 

Speaking of TPGs, I recently sent NGC a cent that they had slabbed from the Reiver collection. I had cracked it because I like my old copper raw. I kept it until I found a better specimen, but when deciding to sell, I knew that it would do better as a type coin in a slab than raw. NGC BB'd it for cleaning. I'm not the one who cleaned it, so it's just another story to enter into the annals of how fickle the TPGs are are with old copper. Not the first time, and it won't be the last.

 

Hoot

[1798CentCollector-migratio]

Interesting Hoot. Did you send the tag back in??? I wonder how many coins in the Reiver sale sale that made it into NGC (not NCS) slabs would actually be slabbed today if re-presented to NGC raw. In speaking with a noted copper dealer re: coins in both this sale and even the Rasmussen sale he felt that more than a few tough-call cleaned/recolored cents made it into the standard holders somnetimes with a caveat of "possibly recolored" in the lot description.

[Hoot]

1798 - I did not send in the old tag with the coin, as I felt it was unnecessary. I also think this coin has been recolored in the way that most circulated early coppers have been - probably more than once! I had brushed it lightly with my camel hair brush to remove surface debris, which also got rid of the dullness (that's probably the mistake - should have thumbed it, huh? ). As for evidence of cleaning, the coin does not show any evidence of harsh cleaning, but like many Reiver coins, has a few hairlines. Still, the color is a nice mild brown and the surfaces are average overall. No question of the "questionable nature" of many coins that were slabbed for the Reiver sale, but this coin deserves a slab as much as the next (not that any really deserve a slab.

 

(No big deal - I'll sell it to a real copper collector or a Dansco 7070 collector instead of a slab collector.)

 

Hoot

[MikeInFL]

I wonder how many coins in the Reiver sale sale that made it into NGC (not NCS) slabs would actually be slabbed today if re-presented to NGC raw. In speaking with a noted copper dealer re: coins in both this sale and even the Rasmussen sale he felt that more than a few tough-call cleaned/recolored cents made it into the standard holders somnetimes with a caveat of "possibly recolored" in the lot description.

 

I would guess less than half for the Reiver coins would get back into NGC plastic if they were resubmitted.

 

That being said, and while I won't dispute some of the Rasmussen coins would fall into the same group of unslabbable coins, my sense is the Rasmussen coins were, in large, of a much higher quality and a far smaller percentage were "problem" coins.

 

You have to wonder how much of a role Heritage's ownership in NGC played in the overlooking of problems and overgrading. Particularly with the Reiver collection, the perception of "looser standards" for large pedigreed Heritage-auctioned collections is alive and well....Mike

[majorbigtime-migration]

Yep, you're a doctor. No doubt about it.

 

Not a bad result, though.