Is this coin artificially toned? If so, why?

[truthteller]

If not, why not

 

 

http://apps.heritagecoin.com/auction/view_item.php?Sale_No=328&Lot_No=9259

 

TRUTH

[EZ_E]

I don't think that it is AT since the toning radiates centrally from the lateral margins which suggests to me that it was toned in an album. But, then again, I don't know squat about AT except that your can bake 'em in a toilet paper tube to cause AT. And, oh yea, there's that microwave trick.

 

 

 

[bigd5]

I don't usually get into the technical aspects of why I think something's real, or not real, because I couldn't explain it properly. I go by looks, and that coin doesn't "look" real to me, only because the body of the coin is flat and the color is only on the rim areas. If it was in an envelope, the color would have been, not necessarily more uniform, but would have been towards the centers a bit more, as opposed to just along the rims, which would suggest some album toning.

If I saw that coin up close, I'd probably just pass on the coin. Now would I have passed on a naturally toned beauty? Maybe. I wouldn't take a shot with that coin and not think twice about my decision later on.

 

 

[cointagious]

looks ok to me but the rims hold the key. the darkness at the rims is a plus and green is a tuff color to a.t. on the downside, the coin appears that someone ms70ed it to lighten it but that's a guess. the piece probably resided in a wood chest/drawer/displaybox or possibly an old coin envelope after having been in an w.r. album. as a caveat, with heritages's photography nearly any result is possible

[gmarguli]

The coin is AT without a doubt. I've owned two Clevelands with toning like this and I've seen several more. The person who did this coin did a bunch of other commems and they all had similar attributes.

 

The "crackling" toning is the most common AT attribute of these coins.

 

The repeating of color is also an attribute that is common with AT.

 

[jom]

The "crackling" toning is the most common AT attribute of these coins.

 

Not exactly sure what you mean by "crackling" but I've seen many Roosey dimes that have "cracked" toning that are perfectly legit.

 

If what you mean by "crackling" is the sound the microwave oven make when you are baking the coin you might have a point.

 

jom

[mommam17]

Hi. I don`t know if the coin is AT or not. But why hasn`t it been certified? Was it bagged, possibly?

[keithdagen]

The coin doesn't appear right. The coloration around the rims looks funny, and is inconsistent with the previously mentioned "crackling" over the main devices. Not a coin that I would be taking any kind of risk on.

[EVillageProwler]

The coin is undeniably A/T. I know that TT asked why, but I'm afraid I'm gonna have to give a partial answer this time and leave out the justification...

 

Oh, heck... The "why" is because I can easily duplicate that color like that.

 

EVP

 

[braddick]

It's pretty and it's raw: must be AT.

 

It's pretty and it's holdered (NGC or PCGS) it's NT.

 

I know that is looking at the issue with simplicity and with the "Numismatic Blinders" on- but I have yet to come up with a better method of making a determination without going completely nuts.

[truthteller]

Well, here is my opinion. The coin is artificially toned, that is why it is not in a holder. This is my opinion. Greg is correct with the 'crackling' definition of the toning. The color has a certain 'signature' of a certain coin doctor whose work I know of. Although I can not be 100% sure, experience has taught me to look out for this color. I have seen coins holdered with this 'type' of color early on in the grading services history, only to darken with age. This coin stands out because it is not holdered, so one must take special care when observing the color. In my opinion, the color was added with gas. This is a good coin to learn from.

 

 

TRUTH

[cointagious]

crackling? what's this crackling? if you're refering to the breaks in the toning, that can be caused by trying to lighten it with ms70. i know. i just screwed up a nice solidly toned piece and removed some of the toning with ms70 and now it looks similar to the toning pattern on the subject coin. the fact the the coin doesn't appear to have a crust also makes me believe that someone has tried to improve the looks. if you know how to duplicate that green color, i love to know!

[gmarguli]

The "crackling" toning is the most common AT attribute of these coins.

 

Not exactly sure what you mean by "crackling" but I've seen many Roosey dimes that have "cracked" toning that are perfectly legit.

 

 

It's kind of hard to describe, but they look different. The AT coins in between the toning on the coin will frequently be untoned. Not so on most NT coins.

[Leothelion]

If there is uncertainty in whether a coin is NT or not, how will they grade it? AT?

 

Leo

[BankNote1]

IMO, I don't think you can tell much about toning from a Heritage photo.

The coin may well be AT, but the question should be, will the coin slab or not?

[TomB]

Okay, I read the posts before I looked at the image so one might be able to say that I might have been influenced by others. Of course, if you are familiar with me then you will know that this is not the case. These opinions are based entirely on the Heritage image and I will assume that the image is somewhat accurate.

 

My opinion; the coin is AT with certainty.

 

There is first the obvious issue of why a coin that is soooo wildly toned is not in a reputable holder since the simple fact that it is raw will dictate that the coin will sell for 5-10% of the selling price had it been slabbed. That is the first issue and is a very easy one. Also, the crackling that Greg mentioned is well-known to me and is slightly different, in hand, than the breaks or crackles in toning that one typically finds on US Mint Set toned coins from 1947-1958. If you look at enough of these coins you will recognize that the difference in crackling might seem subtle, but is reproducible and can be used as a diagnostic. Lastly, the colors themselves are not often found in naturally toned coins. Not all the colors, rather, the ruddy orange between OF and AMERICA on the obverse is almost never found on a genuinely toned coin and that green color within STATES and AMERICA does not look like a pure green that might be expected, additionally, the purple up against the rim is contaminated with significant blue color. Overall, the coin has some questionable colors, has a distinctive, AT toning pattern and has a mix of contaminated colors that is not seen on naturally toned coins.

 

I agree that this coin was toned via gas.

[michael]

for me this is a no brainer AT coin

 

as to why? i am not going to answer that

 

 

 

many thanks to truth for posting great threads which help many collectors and the hobby in general

 

i am sure truth has given many coin buyers a chance to think lots before they buy coins just by his posts of AT coins and other words of coin wisdom on these forums

 

and of course all the feedback others post here

 

i like these type of threads the best

 

as they inform and after all is said and done i am sure no doubt have helped at least one coin buyer make better choices!

 

sincerely michael

[jom]

Tom and Truth:

 

Here is a picture of several Roosey Dimes. RAW! Some of these have the "cracked" look. How do these differ from the Cleveland?

 

The pic is too big to attach but here is an addy:

 

Roosey's

 

Thanks

 

jom

[truthteller]

Jom,

 

Very good example on the Roosies of how difficult sometimes to distinguish real from AT. The roosies have a good "look" to them, original Dansco album toning with the light white lintspots which are typical. The 'crackling' toning tends to be more scattered within the differing areas of tone, in spots where the color changes dramatically. No light lintspots are noticiable on the Cleveland, just the haphazard areas of white. Again, good examples of what to look out for.

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

Here is a picture of several Roosey Dimes. RAW! Some of these have the "cracked" look. How do these differ from the Cleveland?

 

The crackling is much more jagged, scattered, and "out of place" on the Cleveland. The dimes look with their breaks by the rim.

[braddick]

Here's the deal breaker: Say the coin is an MS65 as far as surfaces/marks/strike/luster- what price are you into this coin suspecting as strongly as you do it is also AT?

Does the price you're willing to pay hinge on your ability to flip it and if you do, is your opinion part of the topic of this coin to the new buyer?

[truthteller]

Braddick,

 

I assume your question was a open one and not directed at anyone in particular. If this coin came to me when I was a store owner, I would buy the coin for MS60 money and dip off the toning. To me, it's just like buying a doctored coin. Why resell the AT coin only for the next dealer to screw the unwary collector? It's a matter of ethics, which is sorely lacking in the industry. IF the coin were holdered in a reputable grading company slab, then I would certainly flip the coin with the caveat that I felt the coin was AT. In an auction, the buyer has to use reasonable judgement as to what to pay for the coin, there are no guidelines. That is why many doctors have turned to auctions to sell their works of art.

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

Does the price you're willing to pay hinge on your ability to flip it and if you do, is your opinion part of the topic of this coin to the new buyer?

 

Yes and maybe. Depends on how I sell the coin. I might just put the coin up for sale with NO description and just the picture. Let the buyer form their opinion.

 

If it is in a slab of either a reputable or semi-reputable company (not ACG, NTC, etc) then I'll likely sell the coin with listing the toning attributes. No mention that I think the coin is AT. HOWEVER, if a potential buyer asked my opinion, I would give them an honest opinion that the coin could be AT.

[jom]

Thanks for the info Truth, Greg.

 

Actually, these coins come from a Whitman folder. They were sold in a Superior auction May 1996 and I bought the set from a dealer at the subsequent LB show later that week. It's a 1960 dated blue Whitman "Roosevelt Dimes 1946 - " with gold trim for the letters and the design. Just so you know....

 

Which begs the question to Truth: Do you ever get any SILVER coins to tone in a Dansco holde?. You implied that it happens but all the silver coins I have in Dansco have yet to tone. Only the clads (some of them) seem to tone. My Kennedy set (again, only the clads) and my (oddly enough) state quarter set are toning. For whatever reason, my Ike set nor my regular Washington set seems to be toning. These sets have been (with exception of the State quarters obviously) together about 10 years.

 

Example Kennedy from Dansco Holder

 

jom

[braddick]

Greg, Jom's Kennedy looks like the 71-D you sold me (sorry Jom, Greg's was prettier).

 

TRUTH: Now, dipping the "AT" off the Commemorative still leaves you with a "doctored" coin.

Do you disclose the cleaning?

 

And, this coin had me fooled all along. Even though I was reading the words of the experts and Dealers/Collectors I trust it still looked pretty dang good (ie: real) to me.

[truthteller]

Pat,

 

I think 'dipping' and 'altering' a coin are two different things. If you want the most altruistic form of an coin which has never been messed with, you need to find the original chain of owners who will each swear out an affidavit, that the mint operator handed the coin to the official, the official handed the coin to the collector, the collector who owned the coin for 80 years, the dealer who bought the coin directly from the collector, and, finally, the slabbing service who slabbed the coin. All signed and sealed and sold with every slab. Right? But rather unreasonable. So a coin that appears shiney white, the assumption may be made that after 65 years, this is not the original surface of the coin, so no disclaimer should follow.

 

Jom,

 

I have had the same experience with Kennedies in Dansco holders. For some reason, probably due to low sulfur content, the silver coinage does not tone in a similar fashion. However, the Wayte Raymond and Melish holder do turn silver very nice colors.

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

Pat,

 

I think 'dipping' and 'altering' a coin are two different things. If you want the most altruistic form of an coin which has never been messed with, you need to find the original chain of owners who will each swear out an affidavit, that the mint operator handed the coin to the official, the official handed the coin to the collector, the collector who owned the coin for 80 years, the dealer who bought the coin directly from the collector, and, finally, the slabbing service who slabbed the coin. All signed and sealed and sold with every slab. Right? But rather unreasonable. So a coin that appears shiney white, the assumption may be made that after 65 years, this is not the original surface of the coin, so no disclaimer should follow.

 

Jom,

 

I have had the same experience with Kennedies in Dansco holders. For some reason, probably due to low sulfur content, the silver coinage does not tone in a similar fashion. However, the Wayte Raymond and Melish holder do turn silver very nice colors.

 

TRUTH

Truth- there is a distinction between AT and Cleaning but calling AT an alteration is a bit rough. I think of alterations as extremely difficult to repair- if even possible at all.

[TomB]

Nice Roosevelts, jom. Three of them have the prototypical look of Whitman toning, those with predominantly blue and gold color, while the others are a bit more lively. Going only by the image I have no problems with them and think that they have not been abused. What is often seen in the Whitman folders is a color palette strong on deep blues and vibrant golds, quite often mixed together. The presence of red and green is a bit different but not worrisome.

[jom]

Thanks Tom

 

You forgot to mention that some of the coins in said albums turn out with crappy toning too. I cleverly avoided showing those....

 

I just looked at those coins again and it seems the "green" you see is more of a blueist cast than it is green and there isn't much of it. The red however is how you see it. The OTT lamp I used to take that pic really makes it look as if the coins are in some sort of refrigerator, doesn't it?

 

jom

[keithdagen]

Truth, or another toning guru,

 

Can someone take a look at this holdered coin that has the "crackling" effect and maybe explain how it is different from the commem?

 

Thanks!

 

Roosie Auction