Truthteller's NGC report card for 1st, 2nd, 3rd year quarter.

[truthteller]

Well, I posted a last year's 3rd quarter report only, but I thought I would share my views for the last 3 quarters.

 

 

Grading

 

NGC is by far the most consistent grading service to which I have submitted coins. I submitted about 250 coins this year, which is much higher than average. Mostly commemorative halves, a few type pieces, several Peace and Morgan dollars.(also a large number of foreign, mostly Mexico). In general, the US grading has been conservative, with a very few pieces grading a point higher than my grading. A few problem pieces were bodybagged for light cleaning. NGC is very, very good at spoting cleaning or negative attributes on my submitted coins. Other services tend to let problem coins through. While a holdered problem coin by other TPGs may be a "score" for the submitter, the buyer subsequently is disappointed. The graders tended to give a point higher for very original, eye appealing submissions, but were not overly generous. When I submit a coin, I feel that NGC will grade in accordance with my expectations.

 

grade: B

 

 

 

Customer Service.

 

Once again, NGC is by far the best customer service oriented TPG. For problem submissions, inquiries, or run of the mill questions, NGC has gone out of their way to provide detailed and proper responses on a timely manner. Kudos to Scott Schechter for absolutely great personal customer service and follow thoughs. I actually get very prompt return calls and emails.

 

grade: A

 

 

 

Submission Turnaround

 

From my experience, the begining of the year turnaround was very good, followed by some midyear slowdowns, and end of the year major slowdowns. I don't know if it's a grading pattern, but NGC has economy slowdowns in September, October and November which are far above the norm. For earlybird, the turnaround is adequate with only major slowdowns in turnaround during the MAJOR coin shows such as CSNS, Baltimore and ANA. Improvement is definitely needed for economy service, but it may be a "bottleneck" in quality control which affects this tier. I only have submitted a few express tier submissions and was quite pleased at the incredibly quick turnaround, espcially when it involved registered mail. However, the ecomony service for most of the year was better than last year.

 

grade C+

 

 

 

The Forums

 

Some see the forums as heavily moderated, some see the forums as too open. I tend to think it's a very quality and informative venue, especially for specific coin and comic questions. Much of the time, an exceptionally accurate answer is posted. Unlike another TPG forum where 15 posters will respond with "I wish I knew the answer", the NGC forum has collectors that "know" the answer. Let's say the Water Cooler is an interesting place.

 

grade: B

 

 

Foreign submissions

 

My opinions above are for US coins. My foreign submissions were very large at the begining of the year, and the NGC grades tended to be liberal. NGC uses US grading standards for foreign grading, which is frowned upon by altruistic foreign collectors. However, a foreign coin buyer tends to be much more picky when viewing and grading a potential purchase, so a TPG grade is less relevant than authenticity when viewing a holdered foreign coin. The purchase/selling price is the final arbiter of the grade. I refer to "real" value foreign coins, not hyper graded, under $20 catalog coins.

 

 

Grade: C

 

 

Overall grade: B

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

Grading

 

NGC is by far the most consistent grading service to which I have submitted coins. I submitted about 250 coins this year, which is much higher than average. Mostly commemorative halves, a few type pieces, several Peace and Morgan dollars.(also a large number of foreign, mostly Mexico). In general, the US grading has been conservative, with a very few pieces grading a point higher than my grading. A few problem pieces were bodybagged for light cleaning. NGC is very, very good at spoting cleaning or negative attributes on my submitted coins. Other services tend to let problem coins through. While a holdered problem coin by other TPGs may be a "score" for the submitter, the buyer subsequently is disappointed. The graders tended to give a point higher for very original, eye appealing submissions, but were not overly generous. When I submit a coin, I feel that NGC will grade in accordance with my expectations.

 

grade: B

 

 

Truth, As always, great post!

 

I must, however, disagree to a certain extent with your assessment of NGC's grading. While my area of specialty, old copper, is quite different from yours, so are my subjective opinions on the consistency of grading and the weeding out of problem coins. In old copper NGC does, by far, the worst job of weeding out problem coins. Their grading, while consistent, is signficnantly less conservative that the other two major TPGs -- a coin graded 55 by NGC will often only grade 45 or 50 at PCGS or ANACS. If I were to give a "grading grade" to NGC for old copper, it would be a D.

 

This says nothing of NGC's lack of action when confronted with the conserved "blue copper" coins -- to the best of my knowledge they are still happily slabbing coins which are AT and for which they have been provided proof of being AT.

 

I could not agree more with your comments relative to their customer service (the best in the biz), and turnaround (generally good), but their grading -- the service that means the most to the marketplace -- still leaves much to be desired, particularly for old copper.

 

Just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth...Mike

[SkyMan]

Truthteller, just wondering, about how many coins did you submit to PCGS?

[truthteller]

While I really don't submit much early US copper, I agree with your opinions. Copper/bronze is a specialty and much or what goes into a holder upon submission, rarely stays that way, espcially for the RED designation. I agree the MS70 situation has hurt the NGC product. However, the marketplace determines what the buyer is to pay for an MS70 treated coin. I have learned in the last two years what to look for. When I get offered an MS70'd copper coin, I say "pass", and it doesn't matter the price.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[truthteller]

Truthteller, just wondering, about how many coins did you submit to PCGS?

 

 

In the last year, 50.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

I must, however, disagree to a certain extent with your assessment of NGC's grading. While my area of specialty, old copper, is quite different from yours, so are my subjective opinions on the consistency of grading and the weeding out of problem coins. In old copper NGC does, by far, the worst job of weeding out problem coins. Their grading, while consistent, is signficnantly less conservative that the other two major TPGs -- a coin graded 55 by NGC will often only grade 45 or 50 at PCGS or ANACS. If I were to give a "grading grade" to NGC for old copper, it would be a D.

 

ANACS for copper. Have you seen the *spoon* coming out of ANACS recently? I wouldn't buy a copper coin in an ANACS slab sight unseen for anything. They are the worst for copper. If it's copper and in an ANACS slab, you have to assume it is a problem coin.

 

 

This says nothing of NGC's lack of action when confronted with the conserved "blue copper" coins -- to the best of my knowledge they are still happily slabbing coins which are AT and for which they have been provided proof of being AT.

 

Unlike your beloved PCGS which does a great job. FYI, I know for a fact PCGS extremely recently slabbed some blue Indians. They also upgraded them significantly. I know, impossible. PCGS is the gold standard and would never grade these "AT coins". Of course, one of their graders recently told me they are fine and still grading them, but screw that, get the pitchforks going for NGC. Market acceptable.

[truthteller]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

[truthteller]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

TRUTH

 

I saw before and after pictures.

[truthteller]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

TRUTH

 

I saw before and after pictures.

 

 

Sorry, not good enough. Doctored images and all.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

TRUTH

 

I saw before and after pictures.

 

 

Sorry, not good enough. Doctored images and all.

 

TRUTH

 

Are you saying that one or both of the sellers doctored the images? Would that be the big dealer in NJ or the respected forum member in CA? I just want to know which one should be suing you.

[truthteller]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

TRUTH

 

I saw before and after pictures.

 

 

Sorry, not good enough. Doctored images and all.

 

TRUTH

 

Are you saying that one or both of the sellers doctored the images? Would that be the big dealer in NJ or the respected forum member in CA? I just want to know which one should be suing you.

 

 

I would think they would sue you for bringing this up for public condemnation.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

TRUTH

 

I saw before and after pictures.

 

 

Sorry, not good enough. Doctored images and all.

 

TRUTH

 

Are you saying that one or both of the sellers doctored the images? Would that be the big dealer in NJ or the respected forum member in CA? I just want to know which one should be suing you.

 

 

I would think they would sue you for bringing this up for public condemnation.

 

TRUTH

 

I'll be calling you as my defense witness. After all, you sure seem to know a lot about doctored coins that get into slabs.

[truthteller]

PCGS does grade blue indians, but not MS70'd coins.

 

TRUTH

 

 

PCGS grades MS70ed blue Indians. That is a 100% fact.

 

 

Unless you tone them and submit them, I don't believe you.

 

TRUTH

 

I saw before and after pictures.

 

 

Sorry, not good enough. Doctored images and all.

 

TRUTH

 

Are you saying that one or both of the sellers doctored the images? Would that be the big dealer in NJ or the respected forum member in CA? I just want to know which one should be suing you.

 

 

I would think they would sue you for bringing this up for public condemnation.

 

TRUTH

 

I'll be calling you as my defense witness. After all, you sure seem to know a lot about doctored coins that get into slabs.

 

 

Yup. I got the goods on all the naughty folks in the coin industry, and the forums too.

 

 

TRUTH

[Hoot]

I must, however, disagree to a certain extent with your assessment of NGC's grading. While my area of specialty, old copper, is quite different from yours, so are my subjective opinions on the consistency of grading and the weeding out of problem coins. In old copper NGC does, by far, the worst job of weeding out problem coins. Their grading, while consistent, is signficnantly less conservative that the other two major TPGs -- a coin graded 55 by NGC will often only grade 45 or 50 at PCGS or ANACS. If I were to give a "grading grade" to NGC for old copper, it would be a D.

 

Mike -

 

Great post, Truth!

 

Hoot

[DC Dawg]

CHILDREN!!! Do we have to put you into timeout?!

 

Scott

[MAULEMALL]

Mike -

 

Great post, Truth!

 

Hoot

Lets not forget Greg...Just because he tells it like it is and some don't particularly agree doesn't mean that he is wrong. NOR should he be the brunt of the ignorances of those who are supposedly "Experts" and Veterens of the TPG Era.

Greg was not only vindicated by NGC but now the Kool aiders from across the street are going to have to suck it up and admit they were wrong as well.

 

Agree or not,Greg has educated more on this and the other side of the street about blue copper.And for all the petty sanctomonious pinheads who harber a grudge because they found out they weren't as smart as they thought they were,Grow up and get over it.

 

Oh yea,truth your getting even more petty than normal lately...whats the matter?

[Hoot]

Mike -

 

Great post, Truth!

 

Hoot

 

Lets not forget Greg...

 

 

I wasn't thinking about Greg at all - nor blue copper - sorry. Personally, I agree with Greg. I was responding to Mike's comments on grading large cents.

 

Hoot

 

p.s. Edited my first post to better reflect what I meant.

[braddick]

Based strictly on your scores, your overall grade should really be a B- or possibly a C+ unless you weigh some factors over others as more important.

 

I agree NGC spots cleaning pretty well. Could be though, to be fair, they also offer a service whereas that problem coin may still be holdered.

[MikeInFL]

I must, however, disagree to a certain extent with your assessment of NGC's grading. While my area of specialty, old copper, is quite different from yours, so are my subjective opinions on the consistency of grading and the weeding out of problem coins. In old copper NGC does, by far, the worst job of weeding out problem coins. Their grading, while consistent, is signficnantly less conservative that the other two major TPGs -- a coin graded 55 by NGC will often only grade 45 or 50 at PCGS or ANACS. If I were to give a "grading grade" to NGC for old copper, it would be a D.

 

ANACS for copper. Have you seen the *spoon* coming out of ANACS recently? I wouldn't buy a copper coin in an ANACS slab sight unseen for anything. They are the worst for copper. If it's copper and in an ANACS slab, you have to assume it is a problem coin.

 

Yes, I've seen quite a few coins that have come out of ANACS lately, and it is based upon those coins (mostly circulated large cents and older Lincolns) that I formed my opinion. I've just been seeing lots of nice collector-grade circulated copper coins (say from $200 to $500) in the new ANACS holders recently. If you'd like I can post several examples. And by the way, I wouldn't buy any copper sight-unseen, no matter the holder, but please go continue to assume they are all bad coins -- more for me.

 

This says nothing of NGC's lack of action when confronted with the conserved "blue copper" coins -- to the best of my knowledge they are still happily slabbing coins which are AT and for which they have been provided proof of being AT.

 

Unlike your beloved PCGS which does a great job. FYI, I know for a fact PCGS extremely recently slabbed some blue Indians. They also upgraded them significantly. I know, impossible. PCGS is the gold standard and would never grade these "AT coins". Of course, one of their graders recently told me they are fine and still grading them, but screw that, get the pitchforks going for NGC. Market acceptable.

 

Please don't confuse forum participation for love of PCGS, and congrats to the submitter for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains. Sleep well...Mike

[truthteller]

" congrats to the submitter for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains. "

 

 

Market acceptable doesn't mean saleable. I know a few MS70 copper dealers who can't sell these coins now. Information is king and power to the masses.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

" congrats to the submitter for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains. "

 

 

Market acceptable doesn't mean saleable. I know a few MS70 copper dealers who can't sell these coins now. Information is king and power to the masses.

 

TRUTH

 

Ask them to contact me. I'll buy them. Given the insane prices they are bringing, I'm happy to help take them off their hands at generic Bid.

[truthteller]

" congrats to the submitter for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains. "

 

 

Market acceptable doesn't mean saleable. I know a few MS70 copper dealers who can't sell these coins now. Information is king and power to the masses.

 

TRUTH

 

Ask them to contact me. I'll buy them. Given the insane prices they are bringing, I'm happy to help take them off their hands at generic Bid.

 

Are those solid quotes? For how many coins and at what grades? How long are the quotes good for? You just might have $50K in coins coming to you.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

" congrats to the submitter for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains. "

 

 

Market acceptable doesn't mean saleable. I know a few MS70 copper dealers who can't sell these coins now. Information is king and power to the masses.

 

TRUTH

 

Ask them to contact me. I'll buy them. Given the insane prices they are bringing, I'm happy to help take them off their hands at generic Bid.

 

Are those solid quotes? For how many coins and at what grades? How long are the quotes good for? You just might have $50K in coins coming to you.

 

TRUTH

 

Seriously, I'll buy them - sight seen - all grades. They're bringing MULTIPLES of bid. Anyone who says blue copper is dead is lying or clueless. It's as strong as ever.

[truthteller]

" congrats to the submitter for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains. "

 

 

Market acceptable doesn't mean saleable. I know a few MS70 copper dealers who can't sell these coins now. Information is king and power to the masses.

 

TRUTH

 

Ask them to contact me. I'll buy them. Given the insane prices they are bringing, I'm happy to help take them off their hands at generic Bid.

 

Are those solid quotes? For how many coins and at what grades? How long are the quotes good for? You just might have $50K in coins coming to you.

 

TRUTH

 

Seriously, I'll buy them - sight seen - all grades. They're bringing MULTIPLES of bid. Anyone who says blue copper is dead is lying or clueless. It's as strong as ever.

 

Can't be sight seen. Anyone can be a sight seen buyer. The dealers I know have a truckload of MS61-64 coins, not pretty, but definitely MS70'd. I'll try to have one or two dealers put a couple of packages together for you.

 

 

TRUTH

[michael]

Truth, As always, great post!

 

I must, however, disagree to a certain extent with your assessment of NGC's grading. While my area of specialty, old copper, is quite different from yours, so are my subjective opinions on the consistency of grading and the weeding out of problem coins. In old copper NGC does, by far, the worst job of weeding out problem coins. Their grading, while consistent, is signficnantly less conservative that the other two major TPGs -- a coin graded 55 by NGC will often only grade 45 or 50 at PCGS or ANACS. If I were to give a "grading grade" to NGC for old copper, it would be a D.

 

This says nothing of NGC's lack of action when confronted with the conserved GGG "blue copper" coins -- to the best of my knowledge they are still happily slabbing coins which are GGG AT and for which they have been provided proof of being AT.

 

I could not agree more with your comments relative to their customer service (the best in the biz), and turnaround (generally good), but their grading -- the service that means the most to the marketplace -- still leaves much to be desired, particularly for old copper.

 

[michael]

Please don't confuse forum participation for love of PCGS, and congrats to the submitter GGG for ill-gotten yet market-acceptable gains.

[michael]

[Tradedollarnut]

The before and after pics of the certain coin owned by a New Jersey firm looked exactly the same. That coin was not MS70'd.