I just found a cool clashed buffalo!!

[Amanda]

 

I noticed the clash while photographing the coin.

 

The clash shows around the Indian's eye from the buffalo's belly and legs. I am not sure if it qualifies as a Lone Ranger variety, but I think it's pretty awesome!

 

-Amanda

[cpm9ball]

Amanda. are you sure it is a die clash? I have trouble seeing it. The facial features on the die would be incuse and it is unlikely that a clash would penetrate that deep into the recess of the obverse die. Besides, you have to remember that in "coin turn", the reverse image would be upside down, and I don't think it matches. It's close but still a little off target.

 

Chris

[Amanda]

 

Yes, I am pretty sure it is a clash. I have a copy of Buffalo Nickels The Abraded Die Varieties and such clashes are illustrated in the book.

 

Here is an annotated image.

 

-Amanda

[skippy]

It's extremely unlikely that you have clashed dies on this coin. Clashed dies affect the fields first (the fields being the highest part of the die and therefore the first to clash). You are suggesting clashing occurred on a meeting of the deepest recesses in the die (the Indian's hair and the buffalo's hindquarters.) Recessed parts of the dies cannot clash.

 

You might find it informative to read my article on clashed dies:

 

Invest in CDs (from Numismatist)

[Amanda]

Hi Skippy,

 

I am familiar with how die clashes occur. That's an interesting looking article you linked, I shall have to give it a read.

 

The Abraded Die Varieties book calls this a clash and says that the variety was discussed by Bill Fivaz in an article in Coin World where he called them "Lone Ranger" varieties.

 

I agree that a deep relief clash is certainly unusual.

 

Give me a few minutes to create an overlay for this coin.

 

-Amanda

[Amanda]

I can't do it.

 

My photoshop skills are lacking!

 

-Amanda

[MunkyMan95]

 

I was looking forward to a nice overlay.

 

[Amanda]

 

Just for Chad.

 

But it's my first try, and it really didn't turn out so good.

 

-Amanda

[MunkyMan95]

Thanks Amanda! I don't know about the clash though...

[Amanda]

If I felt it was right to scan the pages from the Buffalo Abraded Die book, I would.

 

-Amanda

[MunkyMan95]

I don't know the first thing about die clashes.... Everyone across the street seems to agree with you. I dunno.

[Amanda]

The book I am using was written by Ron Pope (konyekwest across the street). I am interested in seeing what he thinks.

 

I am convinced it is a die clash, I just am not sure it shows enough clashing to earn the variety designation. Surely it is odd for the clashes to show up on the design and not the fields, but it is far easier to lap clashes out of the fields than the devices. Even so, there appears to be die polish lines in front of the Indian's eye, and it is very hard for me to see the clashes with my loupe there.

 

I wish I could take bigger pictures.

 

-Amanda

[skippy]

I hope the Abraded Die book gives you a good explanation of how clash marks are transferred to surfaces that never touch. I know of no way for that to happen.

 

BTW, I'm the author of the article I pointed you to, in case that wasn't clear.

 

Here is a page from my website showing some clash overlays:

 

Shield Nickel Clash Overlays

 

After viewing the last two photos on the page, the last sentences are particularly germane:

 

On both of the photos above, notice how the visible parts of the clash go "under" the design. The design elements, being incuse on the dies, were protected from being affected by the clash. Evidence of the clashed dies is only visible in the fields of the design.

 

 

[Amanda]

Yes, I did understand that you wrote the article. And it is a very good article, too!

 

I love die clashes on all sorts of coins.

 

The book does not describe exactly how the clashes occur, but it makes it very clear that it is indeed a clash. There are pictures of the clash occuring with several different die rotations and across several dates. It mentions that an isolated clash on the Indian's temple is relatively common and that a coin can only achieve the Masked Indian variety designation if the clash continues over the bridge of the Indian's nose.

 

All of the other varieties in the book are a result of polishing the dies to get rid of clash marks.

 

-Amanda

[skippy]

The book does not describe exactly how the clashes occur, but it makes it very clear that it is indeed a clash.

 

Okay. How does the book make it clear that it is a clash if it does not explain how it can occur? Just saying "it's a clash" doesn't make it so. It has to be backed up with photographic evidence and a clear description on how it occurred.

 

BTW, I did a Google search for your book and couldn't locate anything. That is rather odd. I did find Ron Pope as an author of other books.

 

All of the other varieties in the book are a result of polishing the dies to get rid of clash marks.

 

Umm....

 

Once the dies are polished to remove whatever caused the mint to want to polish them, there won't be any way to tell WHY the mint polished them. In other words, if the clash marks are polished off you can't tell that they were there. The only way to determine that clashes might have been the cause for polishing would be to assemble a set of coins from the exact same dies, find one with a clash, and do a die state analysis to determine that the clashed die preceded the polished die.

 

Amanda, there are all sorts of red flags with the information you are getting from this book. I encourage you to read it with a much more skeptical eye.

 

If you will work through the process by which design transfer occurs when dies clash, you will see that it is impossible for that design transfer to show anywhere but on the fields. Recessed parts of the die cannot receive any design transfer because they cannot touch (clash against) the other die. It's physically impossible, unless the dies deform to such an extent that they would be unusable.

 

Don't believe everything you read in books. Sometimes books are written just to sell books. Don't believe what I have to say for that matter - do more research and come to your own conclusions.

[Amanda]

Okay. How does the book make it clear that it is a clash if it does not explain how it can occur? Just saying "it's a clash" doesn't make it so. It has to be backed up with photographic evidence and a clear description on how it occurred.

 

The book states several times that it is a clash, and there are many photos showing clashes occuring with different degrees of die rotation, a very common problem in the buffalo series.

 

BTW, I did a Google search for your book and couldn't locate anything. That is rather odd. I did find Ron Pope as an author of other books.

 

Here's one on eBay.

 

It's a very recent publication.

 

 

 

All of the other varieties in the book are a result of polishing the dies to get rid of clash marks.

 

Umm....

 

Once the dies are polished to remove whatever caused the mint to want to polish them, there won't be any way to tell WHY the mint polished them. In other words, if the clash marks are polished off you can't tell that they were there. The only way to determine that clashes might have been the cause for polishing would be to assemble a set of coins from the exact same dies, find one with a clash, and do a die state analysis to determine that the clashed die preceded the polished die.

 

The other abraded die varieties deal with design elements that have been removed through excessive polishing, like the 2 feather varieties or the drooping chin or broken back varieties. The latter two varieties can be traced to the root cause of removing clash marks because those two areas clash together often to create what is called an EPU transfer.

 

Amanda, there are all sorts of red flags with the information you are getting from this book. I encourage you to read it with a much more skeptical eye.

 

Thanks.

 

If you will work through the process by which design transfer occurs when dies clash, you will see that it is impossible for that design transfer to show anywhere but on the fields. Recessed parts of the die cannot receive any design transfer because they cannot touch (clash against) the other die. It's physically impossible, unless the dies deform to such an extent that they would be unusable.

 

Here is an explanation that someone gave me across the street: "I know exactly what you're thinking, but if you look at the reverse area of the die that caused the clash, you'll notice that it's actually the shallowest portion of the die and thus just the portions that would cause clash. As for the obverse area, it does have some depth. But I've seen several specimens of this type of variety where an impression of the ENTIRE REAR LEG can be seen running right up the side of the Indian's nose and across the front edge of his forehead. Apparently, the dies were capable of far more deflection than one would think."

 

Don't believe everything you read in books. Sometimes books are written just to sell books. Don't believe what I have to say for that matter - do more research and come to your own conclusions.

 

I shall.

 

-Amanda

[CarolinaCollector]

Looks clashed to me. Cool find. Congats.