Shipwreck Gold: Would it have slabbed if it were not from a famous shipwreck?

[AC-migration]

Sorry, this post turned out longer than I had intended, but I wanted to be thorough.

 

Would it have slabbed if it were not from a famous shipwreck? This question was asked of me after posting an image of a double eagle recovered from the SS Republic in another message on a different topic a few days ago. Link to post

 

At the 2000 ANA World's Fair of Money in Philadelphia, Bob Evans, Chief Scientist and Curator of the SS Central America treasure, had just finished giving a presentation on the SS Central America when a gentleman asked, "Why do these coins get graded when coins from other shipwrecks get returned as no grades?"

 

So the question is not new to the SS Republic shipwreck. As far as Type 1 Double Eagles (1850-1866), it also applies to the SS Yankee Blade, SS Brother Jonathan, and SS Central America shipwrecks. Why do gold coins from the SS Yankee Blade get returned as no grades when most of the coins from the other three wrecks get graded?

 

As Bob Evans answered at the presentation in 2000, "the coins speak for themselves." My understanding is that the coins really get put into two groups, those that are "numismatic" and those that show a "shipwreck effect". In other words, numismatic coins show no signs of having come from a shipwreck. The shipwreck effect coins, on the other hand, show signs of having been in a shipwreck.

 

Gold coins from the SS Central America, SS Brother Jonathan, and SS Republic were mostly graded while, as far as I know, no gold coin from the SS Yankee Blade has been graded and attributed to the shipwreck. The reason is that SS Yankee Blade coins show salt water effect in the form of cracks on the surface of the coin. So this is one shipwreck that is missing from my collection. (see The Arlington Collection of Shipwreck Gold )

 

So the answer to the question is that the gold coins (this does not include the silver) from the SS Central America, SS Brother Jonathan, and SS Republic shipwrecks, if looked at raw, could not be distinguished from a similar non-shipwreck coin and therefore they get graded.

 

Now, a more technical answer if you are interested.

 

The reason for this is most likely due to the underwater environment of the shipwrecks. Although gold is a soft metal, it is virtually indestructable and chemically inert. Basically, that means that few things will react with gold in a harmful way.

 

However, one of the chemicals that does react with gold is chlorine. Chlorine causes gold to corrode under acidic conditions. Seawater is loaded with chlorine. So the key to the condition of the coins is the level of acidity at the site.

 

My understanding is that shallower seawater sites, with a mostly sand or silica seabed, have a highly acidic environment. This acidic environment, combined with a more turbulent environment, causes damage to the gold coins in the form of corrosion and/or "sandblasting" from the surrounding sand. This apparently was the case with the SS Yankee Blade and other shallow water shipwrecks in the past.

 

Let me change direction for a minute to tell you a related story.

 

I came to the conclusion that I would have to accept the fact that I probably will never have a slabbed graded coin attributed to the SS Yankee Blade in my collection. Then I came across lot #355 in the American Numismatic Rarities "William H. LaBelle, Sr. Collection" auction on July 25th, 2006. There was an 1854-S $20 Type 1 Double Eagle in MS64 listed as being from the SS Yankee Blade. On top of that, it was being auctioned from the reknowned Q. David Bowers's own personal shipwreck collection. . . . What a pedigree! . . . But was the coin raw or graded with attribution to the SS Yankee Blade? If raw, how can I be sure it's really from the SS Yankee Blade? Basically, I was concerned with the proof of attribution. If I bought it and then later wanted to sell it, what proof would I have that the coin was from the SS Yankee Blade? So I asked the owner (and clearly an expert on the subject), Mr. Bowers, about the coin.

 

Here is Mr. Bowers's response:

 

Thank you for your inquiry. There are no 1854-S $20 coins that are directly attributed to the S.S. Yankee Blade, but it is presumed that all with slight seawater effect and with myriad tiny die cracks are from this source. There is a spread on this ship in my American Coin Treasures and Hoards book. I never sent it into a certification service, but if I did, and they marked “S.S. Yankee Blade” on it, this would by (sic) probable but not certain. I did interviews, etc., as mentioned in my book, and that is why my attribution is such.

 

Hmm? He probably is right and all the coins with seawater effect and myriad tiny die cracks are probably from this shipwreck. But is it certain? Is it evidence enough to pay a premium? Will others in the future agree with this attribution? With the seawater effect, NGC and PCGS would probably return it as no grade. Needless to say, I did not bid on the coin.

 

Back to the main topic.

 

With the deep water shipwrecks, the surrounding environment is not one of silica, but one of calcium carbonate, also known as lime. Apparently, this is a result of thousands of years of shells falling and settling on the bottom of the ocean. This is an alkaline substance that would counter acidic conditions. So the coins resting in these deep water shipwrecks were preserved instead of corroded.

 

Unfortunately, the same can't be said for silver coins. The silver coins from the SS Central America and SS Republic that I have owned were all not graded. All of them showed shipwreck effect in the form of saltwater etching on the surfaces or corrosion.

 

So as I stated in my other post, the shipwreck gold coins are actually in better condition than non-shipwreck coins, especially Mint State coins. If you had unlimited resources and wanted to create a collection of Type 1 Double Eagles that were all the finest known or even condition census for each date and mint, you would have no choice but to include coins from these shipwrecks. 1857-S coins graded by PCGS as high as MS67! As for the SS Republic, an 1865 Philadelphia graded by NGC as a MS66* (star designation)!

 

Here is a picture of one of the shipwreck coins that I own. You be the judge!

 

 

Sorry, I think I promised this explanation would be short.

[EZ_E]

I would have been sorely disappointed if your post was shorter, AC. This is a fascinating thread, spiced with the lure of treasure, the archaeology of shipwrecks and the appeal of numismatics. Most definitely a 5 star post!

 

p.s. It was a shame about the 1854 S double eagle. It is a sweet date considering the scarcity of its two little sisters.

[TJ'S Coins]

Superb post, easily understood and clearly explained. Thanks

[MAULEMALL]

Sorry, this post turned out longer than I had intended, but I wanted to be thorough.

 

Would it have slabbed if it were not from a famous shipwreck? This question was asked of me after posting an image of a double eagle recovered from the SS Republic in another message on a different topic a few days ago. Link to post

 

At the 2000 ANA World's Fair of Money in Philadelphia, Bob Evans, Chief Scientist and Curator of the SS Central America treasure, had just finished giving a presentation on the SS Central America when a gentleman asked, "Why do these coins get graded when coins from other shipwrecks get returned as no grades?"

 

So the question is not new to the SS Republic shipwreck. As far as Type 1 Double Eagles (1850-1866), it also applies to the SS Yankee Blade, SS Brother Jonathan, and SS Central America shipwrecks. Why do gold coins from the SS Yankee Blade get returned as no grades when most of the coins from the other three wrecks get graded?

 

As Bob Evans answered at the presentation in 2000, "the coins speak for themselves." My understanding is that the coins really get put into two groups, those that are "numismatic" and those that show a "shipwreck effect". In other words, numismatic coins show no signs of having come from a shipwreck. The shipwreck effect coins, on the other hand, show signs of having been in a shipwreck.

 

Gold coins from the SS Central America, SS Brother Jonathan, and SS Republic were mostly graded while, as far as I know, no gold coin from the SS Yankee Blade has been graded and attributed to the shipwreck. The reason is that SS Yankee Blade coins show salt water effect in the form of cracks on the surface of the coin. So this is one shipwreck that is missing from my collection. (see The Arlington Collection of Shipwreck Gold )

 

So the answer to the question is that the gold coins (this does not include the silver) from the SS Central America, SS Brother Jonathan, and SS Republic shipwrecks, if looked at raw, could not be distinguished from a similar non-shipwreck coin and therefore they get graded.

 

Now, a more technical answer if you are interested.

 

The reason for this is most likely due to the underwater environment of the shipwrecks. Although gold is a soft metal, it is virtually indestructable and chemically inert. Basically, that means that few things will react with gold in a harmful way.

 

However, one of the chemicals that does react with gold is chlorine. Chlorine causes gold to corrode under acidic conditions. Seawater is loaded with chlorine. So the key to the condition of the coins is the level of acidity at the site.

 

My understanding is that shallower seawater sites, with a mostly sand or silica seabed, have a highly acidic environment. This acidic environment, combined with a more turbulent environment, causes damage to the gold coins in the form of corrosion and/or "sandblasting" from the surrounding sand. This apparently was the case with the SS Yankee Blade and other shallow water shipwrecks in the past.

 

Let me change direction for a minute to tell you a related story.

 

I came to the conclusion that I would have to accept the fact that I probably will never have a slabbed graded coin attributed to the SS Yankee Blade in my collection. Then I came across lot #355 in the American Numismatic Rarities "William H. LaBelle, Sr. Collection" auction on July 25th, 2006. There was an 1854-S $20 Type 1 Double Eagle in MS64 listed as being from the SS Yankee Blade. On top of that, it was being auctioned from the reknowned Q. David Bowers's own personal shipwreck collection. . . . What a pedigree! . . . But was the coin raw or graded with attribution to the SS Yankee Blade? If raw, how can I be sure it's really from the SS Yankee Blade? Basically, I was concerned with the proof of attribution. If I bought it and then later wanted to sell it, what proof would I have that the coin was from the SS Yankee Blade? So I asked the owner (and clearly an expert on the subject), Mr. Bowers, about the coin.

 

Here is Mr. Bowers's response:

 

Thank you for your inquiry. There are no 1854-S $20 coins that are directly attributed to the S.S. Yankee Blade, but it is presumed that all with slight seawater effect and with myriad tiny die cracks are from this source. There is a spread on this ship in my American Coin Treasures and Hoards book. I never sent it into a certification service, but if I did, and they marked “S.S. Yankee Blade” on it, this would by (sic) probable but not certain. I did interviews, etc., as mentioned in my book, and that is why my attribution is such.

 

Hmm? He probably is right and all the coins with seawater effect and myriad tiny die cracks are probably from this shipwreck. But is it certain? Is it evidence enough to pay a premium? Will others in the future agree with this attribution? With the seawater effect, NGC and PCGS would probably return it as no grade. Needless to say, I did not bid on the coin.

 

Back to the main topic.

 

With the deep water shipwrecks, the surrounding environment is not one of silica, but one of calcium carbonate, also known as lime. Apparently, this is a result of thousands of years of shells falling and settling on the bottom of the ocean. This is an alkaline substance that would counter acidic conditions. So the coins resting in these deep water shipwrecks were preserved instead of corroded.

 

Unfortunately, the same can't be said for silver coins. The silver coins from the SS Central America and SS Republic that I have owned were all not graded. All of them showed shipwreck effect in the form of saltwater etching on the surfaces or corrosion.

 

So as I stated in my other post, the shipwreck gold coins are actually in better condition than non-shipwreck coins, especially Mint State coins. If you had unlimited resources and wanted to create a collection of Type 1 Double Eagles that were all the finest known or even condition census for each date and mint, you would have no choice but to include coins from these shipwrecks. 1857-S coins graded by PCGS as high as MS67! As for the SS Republic, an 1865 Philadelphia graded by NGC as a MS66* (star designation)!

 

Here is a picture of one of the shipwreck coins that I own. You be the judge!

 

 

Sorry, I think I promised this explanation would be short.

Excellant Post AC....Thank you

[AC-migration]

Just so people don't think my opinion is biased because I own shipwreck gold, I wanted to share a line from the 2007 Redbook, page 32, under the heading "SS Republic, Lost October 25, 1865."

 

After careful conservation by Numismatic Conservation Services, nearly all of the gold coins were found to be in pristine condition, with no impairment from their immersion.

 

So if you avoided the gold because you had seen the saltwater effect on the silver half dollars, you may want to take another look at the gold.

[ldhair]

Great post. I learned a lot from it.

Always wondered why the gold coins ended up grading so high.

[TomB]

Very cool post and with a terrific accompanying image. I hate to not be able to add anything to your posts, but it's because I don't collect gold.

[DaveG]

As Bowers explains in "A Guide Book of Double Eagle Gold Coins", the coins from the Yankee Blade were salvaged secretly and were offered to several dealers, including Ron Gillio, who estimated that 200 to 250 coins were recovered.

 

In contrast, the coins salvaged from the Central America, Brother Jonathan and Republic were marketed publicly by the salvagers, so a chain of custody was established and the grading services could demonstrate that the coins they were grading had, in fact, come from those shipwrecks.

 

I haven't seen that many of the Central America or Brother Jonathan coins, but the ones I have seen all look at least "dipped", if not "cleaned." I've seen several of the Republic coins, and some of them look more cleaned than the others, but, again, they all look at least dipped to me. (Perhaps I've just never seen pristine double eagles before.)

 

I haven't talked to any of the dealers of early double eagles to see if anyone has tried to get the coins into another grading service's holder without the attribution, but my own opinion is that most of them wouldn't cross without it.

[AC-migration]

That same book by Bowers you are quoting from also says this in the section about the SS Central America treasure, "The SS Central America treasure yielded 5,402 examples of the 1857-S double eagle, mostly in very attractive Mint State, many reaching the choice and gem levels. Most of these were put up in wooden cases, tightly packed together, which prevented their jostling against each other."

 

Bowers comments on the SS Republic state "As of press time for this book, full numismatic details of the find were not known as recovery was ongoing." So he didn't really have an opinion on that wreck in the book.

 

Adam Crum and Doug Winters in their book The Collector's Guide to Type 1 Double Eagles say, "It is interesting to note that the seawater 1854-S double eagles tend to be more attractive thatn their counterparts with original surfaces. This is due to the fact that most non-seawater examples are well worn and overly bright from having been cleaned, as well as the fact of the SS Central America coins being preserved at extreme depths."

 

As for cross over without the attribution to a wreck, occasionally these coins are cracked out (thereby losing the shipwreck attribution) when someone thinks that they could be graded higher. The recent auction on August 11 in Denver by the company Mr. Bowers belongs to, American Numismatic Rarities, had this to say about an example of an 1857-S $20 Double Eagle graded MS-65 by PCGS with no attribution to the wreck.

 

Lot #1616: A sparkling gem with surface quality and lustre that is reminiscent of those 1857-S double eagles brought up from the ocean floor during the recovery of the SS Central America treasure hoard. Bright yellow gold with decided yellow highlights. Just a few faint marks from a finer grade, indeed, many might assign a finer grade to the present beauty.

 

Or how about this example of an 1857-S graded MS66 by NGC without shipwreck attribution in the Heritage Auction September 14 at the Denver ANA convention:

 

Auction #416, Lot #4036: This piece is not designated as a S.S. Central America piece, but its appearance is consistent with other coins from that hoard, only finer. This is an exceptional piece. The mint luster is bright and frosted, rolling around the surfaces virtually undisturbed by abrasions. The color is a rich, creamy yellow-gold, and the striking details are fully brought up in all areas.

 

Or how about this gem from a February 11, 2006 Heritage auction which was graded MS65 by PCGS without shipwreck attribution?

 

Auction #400, Lot #3243: Vibrant luster and bold throughout. The surfaces are outstanding for a Type One double eagle, with a fresh, undiminished cheek on Liberty. The fields are also clean and show minimal signs of abrasions, although a small cluster resides near Liberty's nose. A strong strike brought up all the devices and stars to completeness. One can be reasonably certain that the present coin was recovered from the S. S. Central America shipwreck. Prior to a few groups of coins being pulled from ocean floor shipwrecks, the number of Type One double eagles that qualified for Gem grades was virtually nil.

 

They are not saying that they think these coins are from a shipwreck because the surfaces look "cleaned" or "dipped". On the contrary, they think it because the coins are in exceptional condition compared to other non-shipwreck coins.

 

Still in doubt about cross over without attribution, then just take a quick look at the NGC population report for type 1 double eagles. Keep in mind when you look at the totals, prior to the shipwrecks, 1861 Philadelphia was the most plentiful single issue of type 1. This was due to having the highest mintage of any double eagle until 1904 (the most common type 3). Look at the number of non-shipwreck attributed 1857-S coins in mint state compared to the 1861 Philadelphia and tell me that you honestly think those are not cross overs that were originally from the shipwreck? What other hoard of 1857-S would they have come from? As for crossing over to other third party graders besides NGC or PCGS, well I won't even bother to comment on what I think about that.

 

But, to be perfectly honest, there's no question that the shipwreck coins have been cleaned, or conserved as the grading services would say. You can watch videos on how they did the conservation. So, the real question would be whether or not that conservation gave the coins a "dipped" look. By this, I would assume you meant that the cleaning has taken away part of the surface of the coin affecting the flow lines that give the coin its luster. If the cleaning did result in this, the coins would have a dull look instead of a cartwheel effect when the light hits the coin.

 

As the owner of many double eagles, both shipwreck and non-shipwreck, I can honestly say that the coins with the best luster and cartwheel effect in my collection are the shipwreck coins. Plus, with non-shipwreck type 1 double eagles, most have been cleaned so finding coins with good eye appeal, original color, and non-abraded surfaces is no easy task. Believe me, I know.

[MAULEMALL]

AC do you write for a living?

 

Around here we would say That"You do words good".

 

 

Another insightful post.Thanks

[AC-migration]

Thanks maulemall. I don't write for a living but I would if someone would hire me.(hint) I just do it for fun. But I am a little pissed that I didn't write that last post quicker because I missed part of my football game I wanted to watch!

 

I'm actually in the direct marketing business (but not coins), so when I see questionable marketing practices, I have to speak up. (i.e. First Strikes) But I also will defend marketing practices that I feel are legit and I think benefit the hobby, as I think about these shipwreck coins.

 

But at the end of the day, I'm just here because I'm having fun and hopefully something I say might save someone else some grief (and/or money).

[comicdonna]

Interesting thread! The thought of treasure has always fascinated me. Even though I am a collector of comics, my goal is to dive for treasure. Especially coins. My wife and I will hopefully retire on my avitar, and if treasure is found, I will seek the help of you board members.

[DaveG]

AC,

 

Thanks for the auction citations. Obviously, at least some of the coins will cross.

 

(and, also obviously, I'm not one of the people who's in the market for these kinds of coins. )

[MAULEMALL]

You know your stuff,Keep posting

[MAULEMALL]

Interesting thread! The thought of treasure has always fascinated me. Even though I am a collector of comics, my goal is to dive for treasure. Especially coins. My wife and I will hopefully retire on my avitar, and if treasure is found, I will seek the help of you board members.

your a dude, Whats with the name?

[comicdonna]

Interesting thread! The thought of treasure has always fascinated me. Even though I am a collector of comics, my goal is to dive for treasure. Especially coins. My wife and I will hopefully retire on my avitar, and if treasure is found, I will seek the help of you board members.

your a dude, Whats with the name?

Donna is my wife. When I registered with ebay in 2002 comicmike was taken, so I went with comicdonna.

Mike

[EZ_E]

your a dude, Whats with the name?

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

AC,

 

If you were out to convince us of your premise, you have done so. I also admire your writing style and presentation of proof in the form of photos, experience and catalog descriptions to support your suppositions.

 

This post should belong to the What You Need to Know section for permanent archiving.