I am sorry, but I am furious and I have to vent!!!!!!!!!!!!

[truthteller]

Thanks, Tom, always insightful to read your posts. Thanks to everyone who posted. I always learn something.

 

TRUTH

[coinman1794]

I tend to aggree with TomB. It is very common for a coin to have different toning over the lettering than on the fields, especially where fingerprinting and hand oil are involved. The coin has the look of a deeply toned, ugly, original piece, to me. It looks a lot like the type of toning that comes with age. You can see very dark brown mixed in that is usually indicative of thick, advanced toning (the kind that eats into the surfaces, by the way). It's this type of advanced toning that can often be found on mint set Frankins that were improperly stored, or that were allowed to tone for too long. This coin may have passed its prime, so to speak. The layout of the toning also seems suggestive of natural toning, with the deeper rims, lighter centeres, and tab outline in the middle. I have not seen this coin in person, though, and I could be wrong!

[berylcoin-migration]

As long as this thread is still alive I thought I'd post the reverse and some less gigantic pics for those who may not have seen both sides of the coin:

 

Link to large reverse image

 

 

BC

 

 

[truthteller]

Here is a sample of tab toned coins in holders:

 

 

 

 

Here is a sample tab toned russet coin:

 

 

 

 

Here is a sample of tab toning with color:

 

 

 

TRUTH

[coinman1794]

This coin has definitely been played with (but I don't mean doctored, I mean literally played with)! It has fingerprints and evidence of hand oil (the light patches where toning was inhibited) on both sides. Someone held this piece in their hands long ago and touched it all over. It seems even more original to me, now that I can see both sides .

[truthteller]

Coinman,

 

Doesn't that lead you to believe the coin was thumbed or fingerprinted to alter the surfaces or color. A normal fingerprint on a coin is normal, but many scattered fingerprints on both sides would mean thumbing. Any thoughts?

 

TRUTH

[keithdagen]

Coinman,

 

Doesn't that lead you to believe the coin was thumbed or fingerprinted to alter the surfaces or color. A normal fingerprint on a coin is normal, but many scattered fingerprints on both sides would mean thumbing. Any thoughts?

 

TRUTH

 

Devil's advocate here. What is the possibility the original owner took the coin out of the original packaging, held it in his hands, passed it around to some friends (all knowing nothing on coin care), and the coin acquired several solid prints. The coin was then placed in some other kind of album and acquired this toning over time?

[truthteller]

 

Keith,

 

Well, I guess you could say that's possible. But then how do you explain the tab in the center versus album russet toning?

 

Possible scenario;

 

65 years ago, the coin was purchased.

55 years ago, the coin was placed in a Wayte Raymond album

40 years ago, the coin was handled and fondled by numerous people

35 years ago, the coin was placed in an envelope

20 years ago, the coin was then place with only a tab on top

10 years ago, the coin was placed again in an envelope.

1 year ago, the coin was in auction.

 

I guess this could happen. But before it ever got to auction, I would have dipped the sucker.

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

Man, I must be totally out of whack because I find this coin attractive because of all the "faults" others have with it.

It looks like a No Apology, naturally (albeit, darkly) toned

Commemorative with personality.

 

I would be proud to own this one.

So, that makes me nuts. So be it.

[CarlWohlforth]

Thanks for the images of tab holders and tab toned commems.

 

I was surprised at what I didn't see. I expected to see more of an untoned circle in the center of the coins like the bars by the rims.

 

I will certainly stop sending in coins for stars. I can't imagine how that russet toned commem got a 68*!!! It could be my tastes will continue to evolve after I see as many coins as you all. At this point it is clear I don't know what I'm doing

 

Thanks for the good discussion.

 

 

[coinman1794]

"Possible scenario;

 

65 years ago, the coin was purchased.

55 years ago, the coin was placed in a Wayte Raymond album

40 years ago, the coin was handled and fondled by numerous people

35 years ago, the coin was placed in an envelope

20 years ago, the coin was then place with only a tab on top

10 years ago, the coin was placed again in an envelope.

1 year ago, the coin was in auction.

 

I guess this could happen. But before it ever got to auction, I would have dipped the sucker."

 

 

Here is what I think:

65 years ago:the coin was purchased.

65-40 years ago: someone picked it up and looked at it, touching both sides.

65-40 years ago: it was placed back in the holder where it was left for many years. 65-1 years ago: Over time, it aquired splotchy toning because the oiled areas were not able to tone. All the light areas are those which were touched by oily hands long ago. That is also why the lettering is a different color than the fields; the lettering has also been touched. It only would have taken one person to touch parts of this coin for it to turn out like this. Also, it has clear evidence of tab toning. The expossed peripheries toned one color, the center has the tab hole, and in between is the area covered by the ring. The patern matches your picture of "tab toned coins in the holder" perfectly! My "original coin" theory also explains the depth and thickness and dark brown color of the toning. Also, that NGC 68 coin has virtually the exact same colors on its reverse as this piece has on its obverse. Everything seems to fit perfectly and, in the end, I simply don't see any evidence that this coin is not original.

 

Braddick:

I would also like this coin a lot for its originality. The only thing I find ugly is the extent in which the coin has been handled. Fingerprints bother me. The obverse does have a lot of character though and the prints are well aged ( another indication of originality!).

[gmarguli]

I will certainly stop sending in coins for stars. I can't imagine how that russet toned commem got a 68*!!! It could be my tastes will continue to evolve after I see as many coins as you all. At this point it is clear I don't know what I'm doing

 

Umm, it didn't get a 68* grade. It didn't get the * at all. In fact, NGC recommended that the coin be sent to NCS to remove the junk on the surfaces.

 

I thought I read the coin graded MS65, but I might be wrong.

 

[CarlWohlforth]

I wasn't clear. I meant the link to the russet toned commen that Truth posted. I can't even see the link now! But there were three links, one to an auction including a photo of a tab holder. One was to an auction for a russet toned commem that (if I remember correctly) was 68*, the last for an attractive colorful commem with no star.

 

I'm sorry if I got a little side tracked from the original coin.

[truthteller]

I had to delete the links since they went through my Heritage account. Some members graciously notified me that someone could access my account through those links Is Truthteller revealed? See the next episode of "As the AT Coin Churns".

 

TRUTH

[berylcoin-migration]

Here are Truth's links with his personal info removed. My appologies if they are labeled incorrectly.

 

Here is a sample of tab toned coins in holders:

 

http://www.heritagecoin.com/auctions/closedviewlot.asp?s=324&l=7122

 

Here is a sample tab toned russet coin:

 

http://www.heritagecoin.com/auctions/closedviewlot.asp?s=296&l=5099

 

Here is a sample of tab toning with color:

 

http://www.heritagecoin.com/auctions/closedviewlot.asp?s=292&l=7467

 

To remove access to your Heritage info just remove "&SID=" and the number that follows from the end of the internet address in your link.

 

BC

[truthteller]

Thanks, I learn something everyday.

 

TRUTH

[Dog97]

Look @ the date; 1836-1936; am I seeing a square lighter colored lime green area over 836-19 that could possibly be from the cardboard strip that runs across the coin from an old commem holder?

Truthteller says the toning is consistant with a Dansco or WR type album and I can see that too, perhaps the center circle was actually caused by the acetate slide touching the high part of the design or maybe where the paper touched it if it was stored in a Dansco or Whitman type folder where the pages folded against each other.

I'm glad to see this thread finally took off with some good discussion about the coin.

 

[truthteller]

Dog,

 

I can see where the acetate slide might interfere with actual toning, but the center is too circular in nature. If it were uneven or splotchy at the high points, you may have a case. What really bugs me about this coin, not the colors, not the perpherial tone, but the center tab mark. It just looks totally out of place. Being that no Bridgeport commems had this type of original holder, this coin made me look at the coin in hand at the auction for several minutes. Take for example, a Walker 50C with nice color, some peripherial tone, only to have a circular tone mark in the middle. Frankly, I have yet to see a Walker 50C with that kind of tone mark, albeit I don't look at Walkers as much as commems.

 

TRUTH

[Dog97]

Well Truthteller I don't know much about Commems because I'm a Morgan guy so I'll offer 2 wild explainations.

#1 Somebody innocently put it in a different style holder and it may be natural but not original.

Kinda like I'm always saying the only original toning for Morgans is bag toning because the Mint & Treasury didn't originally store them in paper envelopes or Whitman folders.

#2 The doctor who toned (IF) it didn't realize there was a difference in original holders consistant with certian issues that a collector familiar with the original holders would catch right away.

Being this coin was also issued in rolls leaves a lot of possibilites open.

[berylcoin-migration]

Truth, how suspicious of the colors would you be without the center tab mark? Without it would the colors alone have sent up red flags?

 

BC

[truthteller]

BC,

 

Ahh! Great question. I have seen so many ugly commems. If the center tone mark were not there, I would not have observed the coin so closely. Yes, that mark was a red flag and it brought it to my attention right away. If I hadn't viewed the coin closer, or if the toning spot had not stood out, I would have gone right by it or simply have graded it an MS63, due to the negative eye appeal. When I put a 5X on the coin, I could see the demarcation lines of tone between the russet rims and the lime green color. Ususally coins of this color I do not bother with, but again, it was uncertified, so closer inspection was necessary.

 

The KEY QUESTION: Would I have looked at it if it were in a holder? The answer would be yes. I would have said, "How the heck did this ever get into a holder"?, but I say that with many, many coins. I currently own a very pretty commem in a PCGSMS67 holder. When I bought it at the show, I was very pleased. But I put it later under better lighting, and sure enough, AT to me. So now it's for sale. Still learning.

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

I currently own a very pretty commem in a PCGSMS67 holder. When I bought it at the show, I was very pleased. But I put it later under better lighting, and sure enough, AT to me. So now it's for sale.

 

Picture? Description?

 

If I like it, forum member discount?