I am sorry, but I am furious and I have to vent!!!!!!!!!!!!

[truthteller]

Someone on the PCGS board is presenting a so called gorgeous colored coin and representing it as original toning and claiming to sell it for megamoney. In addition, pictures are shown. It's one thing to show a raw coin, it's another to portray the color as original. I saw the coin personally and thought it no question AT. The coin sold for not a premium at auction and, obviously, the grading services did not think likewise since it is not holdered. I wouldn't be so upset, but I actually saw the questionable color, and obviously a very, very bad job at AT. If the coin were in a holder, I wouldn't say anything, since the grading company takes on the responsibility. I've looked at color coins for 25 years and this one didn't come close. Sorry, had to vent. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

No need to get upset over it. If the people over there are half as smart as they pretend to be, they will catch it and alert everyone. If not, they'll pay for their arrogance.

[toyonakataro]

link?

[Beijim]

Expose the [!@#%^&^]. I share your annoyance.

 

Beijim

 

[truthteller]

Darnnnnn! this business. I can't disclose the person. It's another dealer. Very annoying, but so it goes.

 

TRUTH

[jom]

Hey, that ain't as bad as some of the AT coins posted that are HOLDERED. What passes as original toning these days is becoming scary.

 

jom

[BushMan]

Darnnnnn! this business. I can't disclose the person. It's another dealer. Very annoying, but so it goes.

 

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry Truth, but that is pretty lame! You create this post, then weasel out with, "I can't disclose the person"?? Very lame!!

[truthteller]

Bushman,

 

All the people who PM'd me didn't think it was lame. It was a 'vent' post, not a soap opera.

 

TRUTH

[Dog97]

He's talking about the Bridgeport Commem that Adrain Crane, aka Anaconda posted. Anaconda also said that NGC had recommended the coin for conservation.

I don't blame you TruthTeller, I wouldn't want to [!@#%^&^] off a coin dealing sneaky snake personal injury lawyer from Dallas either.

 

[lazeroo]

ahahahahah!!

 

thanx dog.

[Elcontador]

No reason to get worked up over this. As I learned when I got back into coin collecting 5 years ago after a 30 year absence

........(drum roll).......

 

1)There's a good reason why an otherwise expensive coin is offered to you raw

2) If you have a problem with a coin's color, so do many others

3) If you are spending what to you is a considerable amount of $ on a coin, have someone who knows more than

you do look at it for another opinion

4) The number on the slab is the starting point in your search

5) If someone is offering you a coin too cheaply, there's usually a good reason for it

6) If you don't pay attention to items 1) through 5), you will get an expensive education.

 

[gmarguli]

He's talking about the Bridgeport Commem that Adrain Crane, aka Anaconda posted. Anaconda also said that NGC had recommended the coin for conservation.

 

I saw that coin he posted. Personally, I think the coin looks awful. If it is AT then it is a bad job since the eye appeal is totally gone. NCS should have a crack at it to see if they can get off that awful looking toning.

[ANACONDA-migration]

Truthteller - the Bridgeport....was holdered by NGC as MS 65. The image of it was when it was in the NGC holder. I bought it raw from Bryan Orsborn (Texas Bullion Traders), sent it in once to NGC, they holdered it the first time around as MS 65 and i sold it to a collector. Incidentally, i would buy that coin back for 90% of what i sold it for. In my opinion, it is a gorgeous original coin. But then again, what the heck do i know, i've only been studying coins for about 20 years, which i suspect is about half as long as you have, by the assertions you so confidently make.

 

You may not like the look of the coin ("in matters of taste there can be no disagreement")....but it is my opinion that just about anyone who deals in originally toned coins will tell you that AT coins usually (don't miss the word that precedes the open paren...'usually') don't come with little dark dots in the center of them - that those generally come from original holders....like the little dot found on the obverse of that Bridgeport.

 

Just thought you would like to know.

[braddick]

Adrian, Welcome to the NGC forums... it's gets friendlier around here, I promise!

 

[ANACONDA-migration]

Well, it's good to be here. I'm sure truthteller means well. I guess my original post of the image of the coin was sans a comment to the effect that the coin was indeed holdered.

 

With regard to whether or not a coin is "originally toned" or not, it is at least at this point in time, a matter of opinion. To some degree it is a subjective one, like who is more attractive, Carl Mauldon or Christie Brinkley, however, i think the truth is, that some coins, the Bridgeport being one of them, is to most trained eyes, a clearly orginal coin. But i wouldn't bet my soul on it. But i would bet my S430 on it.

[truthteller]

Anaconda,

 

If it is indeed holdered by NGC, then you have my apologies. The thread you provided did not state this and stated the coin to be raw. All other of my opinions stand firm since I saw the coin physically and find it difficult to believe the coin was holdered. But I take your word for it.

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

Anaconda,

 

If it is indeed holdered by NGC, then you have my apologies. The thread you provided did not state this and stated the coin to be raw. All other of my opinions stand firm since I saw the coin physically and find it difficult to believe the coin was holdered. But I take your word for it.

 

TRUTH

TRUTH: Reading ANACONDA'S description of the coin here and now knowing it is NGC holdered (the first time too) does this alter your opinion of the toning at all?

[truthteller]

Pat,

 

Absolutely not. I stand firm on my original statement. I'll tell you why and in great depth. Topic 1. The bridgeport commem has certain types of toning. Albeit, you may have differing types, or differing looks of toning on a particular coin, certain coins have certain looks for the era. Topic 2. Over the years, in order to determine how varying types of AT toning are getting into holders, I have experiemented with literally hundred of methods for attaining artificially toned coins, using Kennedy 90% half dollars. Topic 3. The history of real versus fake is education of what a coin looks like with both. In my opinion, you have to be knowledgeable in what true color looked like 25 years ago, versus today. If someone has been in the hobby for only 10-15 years, or since the advent of slabs, they do not have a long enough perspective to determine this.

 

Topic 1. The bridgeport commem was issued in several box type holders, one piece and three piece. The toning that is acquired by the box is more of a dull, to medium tan and grainy tone. The original box was not conducive to nice color toning. In addition, the banks offered rolls of bridgeports, which I have seen, and they come typically white. Furthermore, the tab toning is almost unheard of with Bridgeport commem. I assume that it is possible to have a dennison type holder make a tab mark on a Bridgeport commem if the coin was ever placed within it. The coin in question: The rim is russet in appearance throughout the rim, more conducive to a Dansco or Wayte Raymond type of holder tone. In addition, the tab mark does not match the toning color of the rim. If indeed this coin came out of a tab, then the center would match the rims, the rims would only be partially toned, not completely. Furthermore, tab toning allows the center portions to remain white or off white. In addition, the reverse colors of the coin are not russet or brown as is the rim, but colorful like the obverse toning, which has streaky colors, not colors found on a truly tabbed coin. I believe this coin to be enhanced by heat to attain the colors.

 

Topic 2. I have been able to reproduce the same colors with heat. I have been able to reproduce the same tab effect for the center using a cut out tab from paper. I have never been able to produce the heavy russet tone around the rims with any procedure. Mind you, this was on Kennedy halves, so the results were not 100% same. All the coins were subsequently dipped and have never been marketed by me in any way. In addition, a experimental coin with a light film of oxidation with give more streaky colors. A dipped out coin with give more rainbow colors, except for green, which has to have extremely high temperatures to attain. I have never used gas or gas type conditions to tone coins, since this would be hazardous to my health.

 

Topic 3. Color on original coins 'look' different than on most AT coins. It takes years of determination to find out bad from good. Many collectors as well as dealers come to me for my opinion. It is an opinion,nothing more, nothing less. But an opinon backed by knowledge. My expertise is in the field of US commemorative coinage, the history of the coins, the original holders, containers and products that were issued with the commemorative coins. I have commited to this series for over 15 years. I have accumulation over 1000 US commemorative artifacts. I had seen literally thousands of commems before slabbing and tens of thousands of commems since slabbing.

 

Conclusion, if NGC graded this coin, I will not argue with their opinion. I firmly believe this coin was and is artificially toned. I respect NCG's grading ability, but we all know the grading services buy back processed coins in their holders ever month, as DH does admit. This is an opinion based on actual coin inspection, and NOT from a picture. QED.

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

Asked and answered. I truly appreciate your indepth analysis. Much learned and much still to learn.

[BushMan]

Truthteller-

Did you see the raw coin while it was owned by Texas Bullion Traders?

 

[michael]

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE POST A SCAN OR A LINK OF THIS COIN ON THIS THREAD

 

sincerely michael

[berylcoin-migration]

Michael, here is a link to the original thread. There is an obverse image in the first post.

 

Original Thread

 

BC

[TomB]

Now that I've finally seen an image of the coin, I can comment. Based upon the image only, I have no problems with it being called original. Also, based upon the image only, I think it to be absolutely horrendous looking.

[truthteller]

Bushman,

 

No I did not see the coin while TBT owned it. If memory serves me, I remember viewing it in a group of auction lots, within the last year, possibly a Goldberg sale. It stood out for three reasons, uncertified, ugly, and AT. I remember viewing it for about 3-5 minutes trying to figure out how the coin was colored.

 

TRUTH

[truthteller]

I've got a challenge. Someone send me a 1930's commem, cheap, but unc., and I will do my best to simulate such toning. I ask for russet rims only. If lightly toned(any color) the better. I will send the coin back to the owner and he/she can post it up on the NGC forum. All I ask is that the coin be never sold as real color. Very educational experiment. Any takers?

 

 

TRUTH

[michael]

thanks bc for the link yes ugly and for me AT on the obverse

 

as you can see in the letters and also in the ear on the obverse all one color the coin just doesnot gravatate out in color even within the letters and design

and the color scheme is all wrong

the colors do not sit right on this coin for the most part they lay on top of the coin in places aND IN OTHER PLACES eat right into the surfaces of the coin the toning should either lay on the coin or dig right into the surface of the coin all the same not either or

an odd coin where the colors just do not progress as they should in order as on an original toned coin

 

 

the so called original tab toning in the middle of the coin also does not sit well on the coin just not a true tab toned coin but with an accelrated look to it

 

and the way the coin looks even from the scan for me an AT coin

 

but for sure an ugly coin and lets play devils advocate here and call the coin original toned it is still not a good coin at all and the toning doesnot help the value of the coin at all i would think if you are going to AT a coin you want to give it more value in this case this did not happewn but i am sure the doctors will get better with practice and time

 

the only thing this coin goes going for it is that it is slabbed by ngc

 

and some coin buyer will look at it and fall in luv holder love and like the coin because it is slabbed by a major top tier service and hey such is the coin (con) game and unknowledgable smooth talking clever sellers combined with

novice coin buyers with lots of money ITCHING to spend

 

kind of like reminds me of the simpsons episode of homer not wanting to go to church on sunday on a below freezing day and have to wear those ITCHY church pants

 

but what do i know i have just been doing this for 20 days and all my information i get is what i read in the NY Times

 

 

 

 

 

sincerely michael

 

 

 

[SethChandler-migration]

This is an outstanding post! I'm so glad I joined the the NGC boards. Very CIVIL.

 

I learned alot....and it truly scares me that there are coins out there that look like this. Truthteller's arguement is VERY convincing. How can a reasonable person disagree?

 

IMHO the coin does look AT. Its the green....one thing I've noticed about truly good AT is the deep lime green color. Anyone agree?

 

I was once at a show in Clearwater and a dealer had a complete set of proof seated and morgan dollars that had old ANACS papers, Avg. grade was PR65. But they looked a little "off".....the colors were too bright, and that green color was there too...it jusy doesn't look right. There must have been 10 dealers pouring over the individual coins and everyone agreed they were AT. But you know what, they ALL sold within a few hours....to the dealers who knew they were AT.

 

Seth

 

[TomB]

I realize everyone is writing that the coin is obvious AT, with my post being one of the few (only?) exception(s). I would like to write, though, that without looking at the coin in hand it can be tough to tell what the colors on the surface truly look like. There are the permutations of the imaging process and then each of our monitors has a color gradient that is slightly different than anyone else. On my screen, the green color that is on Barnum looks legitimate, even with the purple combination to it. I have seen this on quite a few US Mint Set coins and am comfortable with it. What this coin looks like in hand I truly have no clue. Remember, each of us is extrapolating the coin's true look.

[truthteller]

Tom,

 

I accept your opinons on some of the colors, but I will ask for your opinion of specific aspects of the coin, since I know you like commems and have seen a few Have you ever seen a bridgeport with a center tab mark like this one? Have you ever seen a bridgeport with complete russet rims and the center tab purple blue? Aside from the brighter colors, the russet color should be on the wording of the legend uniformly, notice how much the russet is missing from some of the letters on one side of the coin, only to be present on the letters of the opposite side. In addition, notice how irregular the russet color merges with the other colors about the periphery. Any thoughts?

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

Hey Truth, I'd be happy to discuss the points that you have written. Please keep in mind that although I have read this thread in its entirety, I have not read it tonight; I read it in real time. Also, I haven't read the PCGS thread at all since I do not participate in PCGS threads at this time. As for the specific questions, which are all legitimate, I will quote them and then give my thoughts.

Have you ever seen a bridgeport with a center tab mark like this one?

No. I have never seen a Bridgeport with a center tab mark like this one. In fact, I don't believe the coin to be original holder tab toned. If it was offered to me as a tab toned coin I would not be sold on it. It could have been in some sort of cardboard holder, but, I haven't seen an issued tab toned Bridgeport like that. You know much more than I about packaging on this series, so, did they even get distributed in classic tab toned holders? I am familiar with seeing them in the blue velvet boxes and these are not tab toned coins.

Have you ever seen a bridgeport with complete russet rims and the center tab purple blue?

No. On my screen there is no truly purple center, the center has a purple look to it but only from 2-9 o'clock and also only on the perimeter of the center circle. I've seen the complete russet rims on coins that were stored in moist environments and these coins usually do not have much eye appeal.

Aside from the brighter colors, the russet color should be on the wording of the legend uniformly, notice how much the russet is missing from some of the letters on one side of the coin, only to be present on the letters of the opposite side.

I can see what you mean about the non-symetrical toning aspect of this coin, however, I also see the remnants of more than one fingerprint on the image. One partial print is directly behind the collar at its apex, a second is midway between the bifurcation point of his lips and the G of Bridgeport, a possible third one might be visible in the CE of Centennial and a fourth is most certainly on the crest of the forehead. As you are familiar, fingerprints are left because of the residual oils on the skin. In addition to the oils, many salts are left with the print. These salts and oils do nasty things to metals over time, and, in the case of coins, can cause areas of increased or decreased toning. So, I could believe that there could be a perturbation of the toning on some letters caused by mis-handling. In no way can I prove this.

In addition, notice how irregular the russet color merges with the other colors about the periphery.

Yes, and I think this looks consistent with a coin that was improperly stored in a very humid environment such as a basement.

 

Just to wander from the thread a bit, I'd like to explain why I wrote that I could believe this coin to be original. There are many of us who are fairly familiar with toning and what to look for, there are others of us who specialize in a series and the particular "look" associated with the series and there are some of us who know much about certain metals and the toning involved with them. You know what toning is. I know what toning is. Some others know what toning is. Even with all that, I still approach a coin and, after giving it a look, check for any gut feeling I have on the coin. This coin, to me, is tremendously ugly, has been stored improperly, is not tab toned, is a coin I would sell at a discount because of the negative eye appeal, but, is likely original. Most everything on the coin I have seen on other coins, perhaps not in all the combinations, but I have seen. I have also been able to tell how other coins have toned that have looked like this so I am comfortable with some of this coin's attributes. I also don't see any glaring problem underneath the toning and with a coin as ugly as this one I would think that thick AT would be applied to hide something. Perhaps it is so well hidden that I cannot see it in the image but I think not. Lastly, an AT coin should be at least somewhat attractive and yet I find that this coin borders on monstrosity status in my eye.

 

So, this might be lame, but, the overall "look" on this coin "feels" like it could be real and that it is really ugly.