Messing with coins in PCGS holders is not a smart thing.

[Excaliber]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

Wow....Just Wow

 

 

Sad isn't it MM? I feel for him in a way, he has worked hard in this hobby to build up his name and rep, just can't figure out why he would do that unless he thought he figured out something special and it got away from him. At least he appologized, there are others on that board doing worse and don't have the cohunas to admit it, or apoligize.

[MAULEMALL]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

Wow....Just Wow

 

 

Sad isn't it MM? I feel for him in a way, he has worked hard in this hobby to build up his name and rep, just can't figure out why he would do that unless he thought he figured out something special and it got away from him. At least he appologized, there are others on that board doing worse and don't have the cohunas to admit it, or apoligize.

I am Genuinely sorry for the guy.... I personally love the old Rattler holders....I have 13 or so and just won another auction on Heritage last night.A 1904O VAM that I was going to post pics of when I recieved it...NONE of them are toned(Except for the ugly black [embarrassing lack of self control]).

 

When I first saw the coin I thought it was a JOKE...The Toning was comical....

Wow

[TomB]

Unbelieveable series of events.

[MikeInFL]

And only the tip of the iceberg, I'm afraid...Mike

[Mercs-migration]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

Wow....Just Wow

 

 

Sad isn't it MM? I feel for him in a way, he has worked hard in this hobby to build up his name and rep, just can't figure out why he would do that unless he thought he figured out something special and it got away from him. At least he appologized, there are others on that board doing worse and don't have the cohunas to admit it, or apoligize.

 

 

I don't understand why you "feel" for him.......if he wasn't a "respected forum member" he'd have been dismissed as a scumbag or a POS. Why is this guy any different?

[gmarguli]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

 

The apology is kind of funny/sad. "Although the only AT ing that occurred was on several Morgans." I guess that Jefferson changed color all by itself. It is clearly not the same as when Heritage sold it. Not even close. Heritage images suck, but not nearly that much.

 

I also find it funny/sad that so many people are surprised over this. It's been known for a LONG time that you could AT coins in rattler slabs. I swear, coin collectors need to get out of their parents basement and go talk to people. They're some of the most clueless people. All the information just waiting to be given to them and they ignore it. Too busy focusing on how many registry set points that piece of plastic is.

 

He's lucky that PCGS probably wants this to fade away and won't go after him.

[MAULEMALL]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

Wow....Just Wow

 

 

Sad isn't it MM? I feel for him in a way, he has worked hard in this hobby to build up his name and rep, just can't figure out why he would do that unless he thought he figured out something special and it got away from him. At least he appologized, there are others on that board doing worse and don't have the cohunas to admit it, or apoligize.

 

 

I don't understand why you "feel" for him.......if he wasn't a "respected forum member" he'd have been dismissed as a scumbag or a POS. Why is this guy any different?

Dude....I feel for anyone who is in pain....Physical or emotional.

Be he or she a scumbag or a POS.

I think it's what keeps us off of all four.

[MAULEMALL]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

 

The apology is kind of funny/sad. "Although the only AT ing that occurred was on several Morgans." I guess that Jefferson changed color all by itself. It is clearly not the same as when Heritage sold it. Not even close. Heritage images suck, but not nearly that much.

 

I also find it funny/sad that so many people are surprised over this. It's been known for a LONG time that you could AT coins in rattler slabs. I swear, coin collectors need to get out of their parents basement and go talk to people. They're some of the most clueless people. All the information just waiting to be given to them and they ignore it. Too busy focusing on how many registry set points that piece of plastic is.

 

He's lucky that PCGS probably wants this to fade away and won't go after him.

I don't think it takes me as a surprise so much as it's just another disappointment.And to be honest it was painful to watch unfold.

[Excaliber]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

Wow....Just Wow

 

 

Sad isn't it MM? I feel for him in a way, he has worked hard in this hobby to build up his name and rep, just can't figure out why he would do that unless he thought he figured out something special and it got away from him. At least he appologized, there are others on that board doing worse and don't have the cohunas to admit it, or apoligize.

 

 

I don't understand why you "feel" for him.......if he wasn't a "respected forum member" he'd have been dismissed as a scumbag or a POS. Why is this guy any different?

 

 

True, i just see "respected forum members" (not on this forum) continuously on a daily basis screw people that they call friends that jump at the first chance to nail someone else for doing something wrong. What he did was wrong, plain and simple, i was just surprised. Maybe we should do like Greg said and get our heads out of the sand.

[gmarguli]

True, i just see "respected forum members" (not on this forum) continuously on a daily basis screw people that they call friends that jump at the first chance to nail someone else for doing something wrong.

 

(This post is not directed at you. I just used it due to "respected forum member").

 

Respected Forum Member.

 

A very prolific respected forum member over there ATs coins and puts them on eBay. This is going on still today.

 

Another prolific respected forum member is known to have ATed hundreds of coins. They are slabbed. I believe he still does it today as I've recently seen some work that looks just like his and the coins I'm seeing now were his test coins a few years ago. PCGS is slabbing these and they are hitting TeleTrade.

 

A respected forum member has made many of the coins in people's toned registry sets, including a #1 registry set.

 

A respected forum member contributes to a toned coin hoard that "keeps on growing".

 

A respected forum member dealer buys known AT coins and tries them at the services. Some slip thru.

 

A respected forum member dealer over there uses the coin doctors. Impossible, not this dealer! They're a saint!

 

One of the most knowledgeable respected forum member dealer over there uses coin doctors (if not does the work themselves). Their response to many revelations is funny. They are being sarcastic, but people are too clueless to figure it out.

 

A respected forum member dealer who sometimes posts over there ATs coins. Don't worry, everyone says he's as good as gold. I might be wrong. After all, it's very possible for a monster rainbow to tone on a coin in a matter of 3 months (the amount of time between when I saw it white and when it was monster toned). Perhaps he stored it in an 80-year-old dealers shop? The coin went up in value around 10X. This coin is the centerpiece of a #1 registry set across the street (and not the same #1 set I mentioned above).

 

Many of the respected forum members over there are so full of [embarrassing lack of self control] it is unbelievable.

 

I've said this a thousand times: people need to start talking to people in this industry. So many people whine about "outing the big time coin doctors". It's funny since they aren't hidden. It's not some special info that is kept hidden among a few of the big name dealers. They're well known. You think the grading services don't know who they are? You can walk the floor of most big shows and see them on one side of the table or the other. They're right there. Open your eyes.

 

Want to know who I am talking about? PM me....just kidding....don't PM me. Go to a show and talk to people. You'll learn very quickly who is doing what to what. Coin dealers are very talkative.

[IGWT]

Ninety-nine percent or more of collectors don't have access to the same information that's apparently available to you, Greg. I get the feeling that one must go through an initiation, learn a special handshake, and join the club to become privy to certain information.

 

It's not very nice to talk about the game and then hide the ball.

[TerrapinWill]

I hate to sound like such an arse, but don't you suppose people who have paid moon money for monster toners must feel like real fools now. Seriously, how can anyone say for sure that the colors werent put on the coin you now own. This proves what most have always known, a fool and his money are soon parted.

[WinstonWare]

I would find this whole issue much more concerning if the coin wasn’t obviously doctored. This looks like it was done with magic markers. The only person that I can imagine bidding on this coin is Greg because magic markers are NT in his opinion.

 

There is no way that “manofcoins” was fooled into believing that this coin is NT.

[WinstonWare]

You sure are on a roll. This is blatant AT and would not have parted any knowledgeable toned coin collector from their money.

[TerrapinWill]

You sure are on a roll. This is blatant AT and would not have parted any knowledgeable toned coin collector from their money.

 

Man, you havent learned the lesson of this entire thread/scandal. the point is and always has been that no one, absolutley no one can say for certain that any toned coin is NT. to think otherwise is just foolishness. No one can say that a coin in an NGC or PCGS holder is NT anymore because obviously there are ways of tampering. if you think MOC is the only one doing it, or that this is just some blip in the radar you're nuts.

 

I

[WinstonWare]

absolutley no one can say for certain that any toned coin is NT

 

I’m not sure that this is even a serious statement. I would suggest that you watch “How to Tell Artificial Toning on Coins,” by H. Robert Campbell former President of the ANA. He, and I, would disagree with you.

[TomB]

If you don't know what you are looking at, TW, I would suggest you stay away from toned coins. If, however, you come to the table having done your homework and with good knowledge then you may do well in this market buying original coins.

[gmarguli]

Ninety-nine percent or more of collectors don't have access to the same information that's apparently available to you, Greg. I get the feeling that one must go through an initiation, learn a special handshake, and join the club to become privy to certain information.

 

It's not very nice to talk about the game and then hide the ball.

 

Not really. Coin dealers LOVE to talk. They'll talk to anyone. The information is out there. It's easy to obtain. People just need to take the initiative to get it.

[shirohniichan]

All I can say is that I feel justified in buying current Royal Canadian Mint junk. There is no toning premium on 2006 Lucky Loonie dollars.

 

Everyone who made fun of me, send me an apology coin ASAP.

[gmarguli]

All I can say is that I feel justified in buying current Royal Canadian Mint junk. There is no toning premium on 2006 Lucky Loonie dollars.

 

Everyone who made fun of me, send me an apology coin ASAP.

 

Sure, what color toning would you like on the apology coin?

[TommyBoy]

Guys and Gals,

 

I have to tell you as a newbie all of this is very hard to comprehend:

AT vs NT

trying to learn about TPGs, only to find out what is in the slab, may not be what they slabed (and these are the companies that are supposed to give the hobby insurance, atleast to the newbies)

Greg stating that he has knowledge of several respected forum members of coin doctoring.

 

The other side of the street looks like a 7 grade argument-Don't make me do it-Do it (repeat several 100 times).

 

I have been thinking about starting a Morgan Dollar collection for my two young boys as some type of inheritance/memory of me (my dad's coins). Now I am thinking, get out of this hobby before I even start.

 

I do know this, I am going leave all of my coins in the safety deposit box instead of having them graded and think long and hard about this hobby.

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

 

[IrishMike]

There is always one person who can tell if a coin was At'd or not, the person who at'd it. And it seems the number of those we know is growing.

[Aethelred]

The sad truth is that most coins, both raw and graded, have been messed with in some way at some point. Anyone who thinks that they don't have any "doctored" coins in their collection is kidding themselves.

[MAULEMALL]

The sad truth is that most coins, both raw and graded, have been messed with in some way at some point. Anyone who thinks that they don't have any "doctored" coins in their collection is kidding themselves.

Sad?

Why be sad??

This is just one more part of the parcel.

I love my coins because every one is unique.All of them Have defects.Some of the bigger defects seem to attract me to them more.

The only thing that has people so upset is the money aspect.

Greed is the only slut I won't dance with.

[WinstonWare]

Patrick, this...

The only thing that has people so upset is the money aspect.

Just isn’t true. There is value to me in knowing the history of a coin. The Battle Creek collection is a good example of some history that has Bag and Textile toned Morgans. In his video H. Robert Campbell says that he can tell where which part of the country the bag was stored in by looking at a coin. I can’t do that, but I could see some value in knowing the history of a given coin.

 

On a smaller level, mint set toning, album toning, and EOR toning all tell something of the coins history. To some, including myself, there is value in that.

 

My point is artificially toning a coin to look like it had a certain history, which it did not actually have, is fraudulent.

[Mozin]

If you boys are at all interested in this situation, you need to go to CU and read the dozens of threads about it.

[TerrapinWill]

absolutley no one can say for certain that any toned coin is NT

 

I’m not sure that this is even a serious statement. I would suggest that you watch “How to Tell Artificial Toning on Coins,” by H. Robert Campbell former President of the ANA. He, and I, would disagree with you.

 

Read this thread and the thread that spawned it, and tell me that I'm talking out of my arse. All the best can do is guess. Coin doctors have become advanced, and if they can fool this group, they can fool you too.

 

web page

[WinstonWare]

The old Peace dollar scandal? I believe, Tom is already on record as saying that he never would have holdered it. I never saw it but if it looked anything like the Peacock Ikes it would be laughable. In or out of a holder, I’d be suspicious of any fantastically toned Peace dollar.

 

I agree with Tom – just don’t be them if you don’t know what you are looking at. No one is asking you to.

[MarkFeld]

absolutley no one can say for certain that any toned coin is NT

 

I’m not sure that this is even a serious statement. I would suggest that you watch “How to Tell Artificial Toning on Coins,” by H. Robert Campbell former President of the ANA. He, and I, would disagree with you.

 

Read this thread and the thread that spawned it, and tell me that I'm talking out of my arse. All the best can do is guess. Coin doctors have become advanced, and if they can fool this group, they can fool you too.

 

web page

The thread which spawned this one was about someone toning coins already inside PCGS holders, not about fooling any group. In fact, the first coin posted looked blatantly AT'd.

[gmarguli]

The thread which spawned this one was about someone toning coins already inside PCGS holders, not about fooling any group. In fact, the first coin posted looked blatantly AT'd.

 

If someone posted that auction and asked about the toning, would you have called it "blatantly AT"? I bet many people would have thought the picture was juiced and the toning didn't look exactly like the image.

 

I agree the toning didn't come close to looking natural, but since it was in a PCGS slab, I bet a lot of people would have suspected a juiced picture instead of an ATed coin.

 

All MoC needed to do was get a little more experience and then run a few of these thru for new holders, then dump them in auctions where the companies are known for juicing the images and he'd have had a profitable business going.

 

And if MoC did this with only a year of practice, imagine what others are doing who had a 15 year head start.