Messing with coins in PCGS holders is not a smart thing.

[truthteller]

A coin dealer went to prison for 9 long years for tampering with the TPG holder. I wonder if tampering with coins in the holder will get you more or less time?

 

 

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=535183

 

 

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

Unfortunately, if this is a case of toning the coin while already in the holder, the process has been worked on for many years by many folks with scattered results.

[zrlevin]

I'm glad I don't trust the TPG's for anything other that authenticity!

[truthteller]

Unfortunately, if this is a case of toning the coin while already in the holder, the process has been worked on for many years by many folks with scattered results.

 

 

It might be in PCGS's best interest to disavow any first generation holders. I didn't realize how good the doctors could be with gassing the "rattlers".

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Tradedollarnut]

Unfortunately, if this is a case of toning the coin while already in the holder, the process has been worked on for many years by many folks with scattered results.

 

 

It might be in PCGS's best interest to disavow any first generation holders. I didn't realize how good the doctors could be with gassing the "rattlers".

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

Not just the rattlers.... most holders from most companies. Somebody posted pics from an experiment on the PCGS chatroom [TonedPeaceNut?]. And I have first hand example of a coin auctioned white in the 1990's and then in the 2000's with rim toning ... in the same old NGC fatty holder.

[gmarguli]

And I have first hand example of a coin auctioned white in the 1990's and then in the 2000's with rim toning ... in the same old NGC fatty holder.

 

That doesn't mean it was messed with. Lots of coins tone slightly in slabs. Not to the extent of the coin across the street, but some rim toning is not uncommon.

[truthteller]

There's no hiding anything on the internet. Things are getting bad across the street.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[cointagious]

I posted years ago about how it's done. Think wire gage drill bits and an autoclave.

 

In many cases you wouldn't even need to drill the seam on the slab.

 

I knew a guy years ago that made a mint (no pun intended) doing this along with making them outside of holders. I gave him some free legal advice then about it and I believe he stopped and has disappeared from the hobby.[sarcasm] Nice to see others have picked-up the slack.[/sarcasm]

[IGWT]

A coin dealer went to prison for 9 long years for tampering with the TPG holder. I wonder if tampering with coins in the holder will get you more or less time?

 

I assume it's what he did with the holder after tampering with it -- not the tampering itself -- that resulted in hard time.

 

Here are a couple of questions: (1) Would the doctor's conduct be any more or less culpable if he had managed to get PCGS to reholder the coin after toning it in the old slab? (2) Would the doctor's conduct be any more or less culpable if he had cracked the coin out of the old slab before toning it and then had it graded on resubmission?

 

Looking at this case, Greg, do you still argue that there's no such thing as artificial toning?

[James_OldeTowne]

I read very little of that thread, but it doesn't sound like slab tampering. It sounds like coin toning tampering, which is not against the law.

 

James

[IrishMike]

Wow I am not buying any more toned morgans from 80 year old coin dealers.

[gmarguli]

Looking at this case, Greg, do you still argue that there's no such thing as artificial toning?

 

Yep. There is just toning. We can break it down based on speed or type to make some people feel better, but it's all just toning. And I collect toned coins!!!

[James_OldeTowne]

Hold on a second, I just read a little more of the thread across the street (with the usual caveat of having to swim through a lot of psycho-babble), and I realized something. It seems that an even more significant issue is at hand than somebody allegedly adding a little ugly color to blast-white coins. If someone gets ripped off from a 1st generation rattler with post-certification altered coins, isn't PCGS liable to get sued?

 

It seems that the slabs are/were offered as providing reasonable protection against the coins being tampered with. In other words, PCGS claims to have created a "tamper evident" capsule. Here's a quote from the PCGS website:

 

PCGS pioneered the tamper-evident, sonically-sealed, high security capsule as a method of reinforcing its Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity of each PCGS coin. ...

 

... Equally important, PCGS's hard plastic holder provides optimum protection for safe, long-term storage of rare coins.

 

So, just how "tamper evident" are these PCGS holders? Or NGC's holders? Or that of anybody else? It seems to me that if you advertise something as being "tamper evident", but it proves to be that easy to tamper with, you may have a legal situation brewing. Furthermore, if slabs are advertised as being "protective", but they can't even protect a coin from a normal environment (assuming these were not actually tampered with), what kind of legal ramifications would that have?

 

Imagine the shock that would hit the hobby if it were discovered that someone had learned how to tamper with the labels inside these holders !

 

This may get very interesting....

 

James

[truthteller]

"I assume it's what he did with the holder after tampering with it -- not the tampering itself -- that resulted in hard time."

 

 

That's a good question. I don't know the particulars of the case. However, I know that the first generation holder inserts were counterfeited and that plastic cases were copied. Apparently, the dealer inserted inferior quality coins using actual PGCS certification numbers, some of which did not correspond with the correct coins. The monetary loss was so huge, the government could not help but prosecute.

 

 

TRUTH

[truthteller]

Hold on a second, I just read a little more of the thread across the street (with the usual caveat of having to swim through a lot of psycho-babble), and I realized something. It seems that an even more significant issue is at hand than somebody allegedly adding a little ugly color to blast-white coins. If someone gets ripped off from a 1st generation rattler with post-certification altered coins, isn't PCGS liable to get sued?

 

It seems that the slabs are/were offered as providing reasonable protection against the coins being tampered with. In other words, PCGS claims to have created a "tamper evident" capsule. Here's a quote from the PCGS website:

 

PCGS pioneered the tamper-evident, sonically-sealed, high security capsule as a method of reinforcing its Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity of each PCGS coin. ...

 

... Equally important, PCGS's hard plastic holder provides optimum protection for safe, long-term storage of rare coins.

 

So, just how "tamper evident" are these PCGS holders? Or NGC's holders? Or that of anybody else? It seems to me that if you advertise something as being "tamper evident", but it proves to be that easy to tamper with, you may have a legal situation brewing. Furthermore, if they are advertised as being "protective", but they can't even protect a coin from a normal environment, what kind of legal ramifications would that have?

 

Imagine the shock that would hit the hobby if it were discovered that someone had learned how to tamper with the labels inside these holders !

 

This may get very interesting....

 

James

 

James, the liability to PCGS is enormous. However, it is almost impossible to actually find the tamperer. However, with the internet, the possibility of finding the before, after and current photographs of the coins is possible, as we as seeing now. PCGS just might make an example, or PCGS may disavow ALL guarantees to the first generation holder.

 

 

TRUTH

[James_OldeTowne]

Truth, it occurs to me that this may not really be an issue of "tampering" per se, but rather an issue of a so-called "protective" type of coin holder not being protective to the extent implied. In other words, if NGC or PCGS bases the value of their service substantially on the protective capability of their holders - and the holders prove to offer poor protection against the simplest of environmental factors, is their a false premise here?

 

James

[TerrapinWill]

I'm sorry if he's a friend to anyone here or at PCGS, but ManofCoins is full of chit.

His story is just absurd on its face. either the dealer or he doctored this coin, what other explanation is there? he may be a nice guy, but you would have to be out of your mind to buy a coin from him, I know I wouldnt.

[truthteller]

Truth, it occurs to me that this may not really be an issue of "tampering" per se, but rather an issue of a so-called "protective" type of coin holder not being protective to the extent implied. In other words, if NGC or PCGS bases the value of their service substantially on the protective capability of their holders - and the holders prove to offer poor protection against the simplest of environmental factors, is their a false premise here?

 

James

 

 

Another good question. My guess is that the TPG render an opinion only at the moment of certification. Other than counterfeit coins, who is to know what happens to the coin in the holder afterward. If there is ANY evidence of tampering, the guarantee is void. In this case, I would need to inspect the holder and I am sure PCGS is eager to get it's hands on the coins in question. Years ago, there was a dealer who was caught red handed tampering with several TPG graded holders. The company involved immediately addressed the situation, wrote letters to all affiliated dealers and banned the dealer from it's network. That dealer went out of business and was essential banned from the industry.

 

As far as protective, I don't think the TPG can guarantee that. Much like GIA certifying a diamond. They render an opinion at the moment, but after that, the diamond might get chipped, or lasered or altered in some way.

 

 

TRUTH

[James_OldeTowne]

((( I'm sorry if he's a friend to anyone here or at PCGS, but ManofCoins is full of chit.

His story is just absurd on its face. either the dealer or he doctored this coin, what other explanation is there? he may be a nice guy, but you would have to be out of your mind to buy a coin from him, I know I wouldnt.)))

 

I have no clue who ManOfCoins is, but let's assume for a moment that the mystery dealer he refers to actually exists, and really is this dark, sinister, shadowy figure who has learned how to tone certified coins without affecting the holder in any way, shape or form.

 

Has either person done something illegal? Unethical? Immoral? Or just annoying?

 

And is the sinister dealer at fault, or is it PCGS, who is supposed to be providing us with tamper-evident holders?

 

I don't know the answer. I'm just not sure that the less important issue is the one being discussed.

 

James

[IrishMike]

Well at least someone knows how the toning was achieved. A deposition might or might not reveal a dealer's name.

[gmarguli]

I'm sorry if he's a friend to anyone here or at PCGS, but ManofCoins is full of chit.

His story is just absurd on its face. either the dealer or he doctored this coin, what other explanation is there? he may be a nice guy, but you would have to be out of your mind to buy a coin from him, I know I wouldnt.

 

I don't know MoC. As far as I know, I've never had any contact with him. However, his story is completely unbelievable.

 

Why does MoC buy rattler slabs to resell to a dealer who likes white coins? Rattlers bring a premium and if the dealer only wanted white coins, he could have bought them in any other slab much cheaper.

 

Based on personal experience, the number of rattler slabs I encounter is very small. You'd have to be completely retarded to not notice that the one you bought off eBay white, sold to a dealer, and bought back from the same dealer toned, all in the span of a couple weeks, was the same coin. MoC is either in the know or completely retarded. The turnaround time is just amazing and I doubt that MoC is that stupid.

 

As for not naming the dealer, I can only believe it is because the dealer doesn't exist. If he names a dealer he makes up, people will know very quickly. If he names one that does exist, that dealer will get contacted very quickly to confirm/deny the story. And not naming the dealer leaves some doubt in the minds of some people.

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing about MoC's story that has any believability. People need to use common sense here.

[Scavenger]

Is this where the saying " Got caught with your hand in the cookie jar" came from?

[chinook]

I'm sorry if he's a friend to anyone here or at PCGS, but ManofCoins is full of chit.

His story is just absurd on its face. either the dealer or he doctored this coin, what other explanation is there? he may be a nice guy, but you would have to be out of your mind to buy a coin from him, I know I wouldnt.

 

I don't know MoC. As far as I know, I've never had any contact with him. However, his story is completely unbelievable.

 

Why does MoC buy rattler slabs to resell to a dealer who likes white coins? Rattlers bring a premium and if the dealer only wanted white coins, he could have bought them in any other slab much cheaper.

 

Based on personal experience, the number of rattler slabs I encounter is very small. You'd have to be completely retarded to not notice that the one you bought off eBay white, sold to a dealer, and bought back from the same dealer toned, all in the span of a couple weeks, was the same coin. MoC is either in the know or completely retarded. The turnaround time is just amazing and I doubt that MoC is that stupid.

 

As for not naming the dealer, I can only believe it is because the dealer doesn't exist. If he names a dealer he makes up, people will know very quickly. If he names one that does exist, that dealer will get contacted very quickly to confirm/deny the story. And not naming the dealer leaves some doubt in the minds of some people.

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing about MoC's story that has any believability. People need to use common sense here.

 

I cant believe it. I actually agree with Greg.

[TerrapinWill]

I'm sorry if he's a friend to anyone here or at PCGS, but ManofCoins is full of chit.

His story is just absurd on its face. either the dealer or he doctored this coin, what other explanation is there? he may be a nice guy, but you would have to be out of your mind to buy a coin from him, I know I wouldnt.

 

I don't know MoC. As far as I know, I've never had any contact with him. However, his story is completely unbelievable.

 

Why does MoC buy rattler slabs to resell to a dealer who likes white coins? Rattlers bring a premium and if the dealer only wanted white coins, he could have bought them in any other slab much cheaper.

 

Based on personal experience, the number of rattler slabs I encounter is very small. You'd have to be completely retarded to not notice that the one you bought off eBay white, sold to a dealer, and bought back from the same dealer toned, all in the span of a couple weeks, was the same coin. MoC is either in the know or completely retarded. The turnaround time is just amazing and I doubt that MoC is that stupid.

 

As for not naming the dealer, I can only believe it is because the dealer doesn't exist. If he names a dealer he makes up, people will know very quickly. If he names one that does exist, that dealer will get contacted very quickly to confirm/deny the story. And not naming the dealer leaves some doubt in the minds of some people.

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing about MoC's story that has any believability. People need to use common sense here.

 

I cant believe it. I actually agree with Greg.

 

seriously......what a joke. What is your reputation worth to you. To this insufficiently_thoughtful_person, I guess not much. He'd have been better off to just fess up, take his medicine and try and rebuild.

[MAULEMALL]

I'm sorry if he's a friend to anyone here or at PCGS, but ManofCoins is full of chit.

His story is just absurd on its face. either the dealer or he doctored this coin, what other explanation is there? he may be a nice guy, but you would have to be out of your mind to buy a coin from him, I know I wouldnt.

 

I don't know MoC. As far as I know, I've never had any contact with him. However, his story is completely unbelievable.

 

Why does MoC buy rattler slabs to resell to a dealer who likes white coins? Rattlers bring a premium and if the dealer only wanted white coins, he could have bought them in any other slab much cheaper.

 

Based on personal experience, the number of rattler slabs I encounter is very small. You'd have to be completely retarded to not notice that the one you bought off eBay white, sold to a dealer, and bought back from the same dealer toned, all in the span of a couple weeks, was the same coin. MoC is either in the know or completely retarded. The turnaround time is just amazing and I doubt that MoC is that stupid.

 

As for not naming the dealer, I can only believe it is because the dealer doesn't exist. If he names a dealer he makes up, people will know very quickly. If he names one that does exist, that dealer will get contacted very quickly to confirm/deny the story. And not naming the dealer leaves some doubt in the minds of some people.

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing about MoC's story that has any believability. People need to use common sense here.

 

I cant believe it. I actually agree with Greg.

 

seriously......what a joke. What is your reputation worth to you. To this insufficiently_thoughtful_person, I guess not much. He'd have been better off to just fess up, take his medicine and try and rebuild.

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

[CoinCurious]

WOW. I just read all this on the other board. Im amazed that people actually payed enough attention to Ebay auctions to discover this. Its amazing and scary. Im startin to think that I may need to go to coin school, detective school, and all sorts of other schools before I even attempt to purchase any more coins. Looks like to me people know of all sorts of ways to burn you.

[midwest]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

[MunkyMan95]

He got caught!

[MAULEMALL]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

Wow....Just Wow

[truthteller]

Damm I just read all 21 pages over there......And I Really don't know what to say.....

 

Now the apology.

 

 

I really wonder if the apology came after a call from PCGS lawyers?

 

This is a significant blow to color Morgan Dollar collectors. Several years ago, wildly toned commems came on to the market. I and several commem collectors became very suspicious. We slowly withdrew from the color commem market, and I became very hesistant to pay thousands of dollars for color on coins otherwise valued at a few hundred dollars. Unfortunately, the fever continues for monster color. Unfortunately, many monster color coins are very, very questionable.

 

 

TRUTH