mkt. acceptable support for a BLUE toned copper doctor....THANKS!! NGC!!

[WinstonWare]

NGC says that we can all MS70 our coins purple and they will holder them? I’m not sure that I believe that.

[Brotherman]

Anyone here ever buy or sell a used car? If you have ever bought one, did

you blindly believe EVERYTHING the used car dealer told you? If you ever sold

a used car - be honest - did you disclose every single problem to

potential buyers? Ok, maybe if they asked you would tell them - but that

is really just splitting hairs.

When you buy a used car it is a good idea to take it to a mechanic to check

it over. Sometimes there are problems that mechanics don’t see. If the car

turns out to be a lemon the party that gets burned is the buyer.

I look at the TPGs as the mechanic in this scenario. They are a great

resource but ultimately it is the buyer’s responsibility to know what they

are buying.

We are all buying used coins here - even the MS ones have had previous

owners. The same thing applies to coins as it does to cars. It’s a buyers

beware market - it always has been.

You older guys keep telling us newbies to learn everything we can before we

make a purchase. The same advice goes for you too.

I predicted that there would be a lot of these coins hitting the auctions after all

the recent hoopla. I really don’t blame the sellers - wouldn’t you sell one if

you had it? I’m not saying they are AT or NT either. But there is doubt - so for

me if there is ever doubt I don‘t want the coin. Don‘t get me wrong, I have

made mistakes but they were all my fault.

 

I think the point is if you like the coin buy it - if you don’t like it don’t buy

it - realize though, that it is your decision and if it turns out to be a bad one

only you are to blame. This seems like a simple concept to me.

 

Hays

[MikeInFL]

Hays,

 

Wouldn't you be a bit unhappy, to use your example, if the mechanic was aware of a problem with your car but chose not to tell you and instead gave his seal of approval on the car signifying the car as problem-free? That's what's happening here. NGC is aware of the AT on these coins yet chose to certify them -- that was Michael's original point. Perhaps you see nothing wrong with this picture, but I sure do.

 

I certainly agree that it is the buyer's responsibilty to be educted, but NGC should hold itself to at least as high of a standard. Since they are aware of who is doing the manufacturing and what to look for and yet still chose to certify the coins, they are just as much if not more to blame for enabling this parasitic force on our hobby to continue as they are not ignorant.

 

Take care...Mike

[JamminJ]

Are we sure those coins are the same?

[TomB]

They are the same coins. I would also assume that if they weren't, you would have heard a strenuous argument from Pat on that point.

[WinstonWare]

Wait. I'm sorry guys. I thought these coins were slipping through. I didn't understand this:

 

NGC is aware of the AT on these coins yet chose to certify them -- that was Michael's original point

 

NGC is knowingly certifying these coins? I thought they were just negligent. This is worse.

[jom]

o It's ultimately the collector's fault for paying a premium for artifically toned NGC certified copper.

 

Of course it is. Who put the gun to their head to pay the big premium? It's the same with the "getting the coins in the right holder" senerio. If people would learn not to be manipulated to believe that MS65 is significantly "better" then one lower grade the stupid premiums being paid for a slab label would go away...and so would the crack-out artists.

 

o It's not a big deal that people are "manufacturing" such coins.

 

If you get rid of premiums being paid the manufacturers would disappear. And, yes, people are making a big deal out of this.

 

o You would buy known AT coins if offered at "market price".

 

The price might very well be 1/10th of an original coin but all coins are worth something, right?

 

o You would like to see all coins conserved in order to maximize eye appeal.

 

No...I didn't say that. All coins? No. The fact of the matter is there is a glut of outright garbage coins on the market. I know that many collectors like to obtain original pieces but it seems to be the exception to the rule because there is so much crappp out there. If no one is going to want the these pieces what does it matter if they get conserved to make them look better? It's done with other collectables such as automobiles or paintings so why not coins? You either have a non-sellable pile of s%&t that sit in coin bins forever or you can try to make them look nicer. Which is better?

 

Not only that it is probably somewhat of a fantasy that many coins we claim are "original" are probably not. Who's to say it wasn't dipped or otherwise changed 100 years or 10 years ago? Do you? Buy what you like (and the term "like" should include the price you pay) and avoid what you don't. Simple.

 

As to AT'd Buffalos. I might even own a couple...who knows? But the market crash senerio you suggest because there are 100s of new toned Buffs coming on the market just isn't realistic. If someone IS making new toned Buffs it certainly hasn't stopped the practice of paying large premiums for them. The problem is that the "look" of a NT Buffalo is difficult to replicate so the supply is limited. BTW, all of this assumes that there is some definition of what differentiates AT from NT. I still haven't heard a decent one.

 

As to the wasted bandwidth: Certainly threads that Mark Feld start to show that purple copper is bogus offer good insight for buyers. That really isn't what I object to. I'm just tired of all the person_without_enough_empathying and whining that go on with the subject of AT and grading. The lynch-mob mentality of these pontificating dolts is getting old..FAST.

 

jom

[michael]

you have a pig who submits many of the same blue toned copper and gets them in holders and he is doing it and then he hides behind someone elses panties and sells thruogh his friends and third parties and screws his friends

 

if the coins are so great then let him sell them outright and say i am submitting all of these and most all to all where not blue when i broke them out of their holders and conserved them then i know that blue brings mucho $$$$ and so i send them all in world coins too by the hundreds then they get graded and i sell them thortugh various friends and other people suckers i meet and i do not say anything

 

if i am so clear why do i have a guilty conscience and just do not be upfront and sell them myself on my own blue toned website

 

yea yea dis and mis information

 

and then i call otjhers insufficiently_thoughtful_persons

 

let me ask you this rat boi would you buy these all bacvkand put them in your retirement fund or recommend them to your close family??

 

 

mmmmmmmmmm

 

i think not

 

you really took advantage of and screwed your friend

 

oh yes the service calls them market acceptable still loo\l

 

duh

 

they do not want to lose your thousands of dollars of gradingh submikssions fees and have their reputation questioned let alone paying out tens of thousands of $$$ in buy backs

 

duh

 

you are whats known as a greedy runt and then hurting your friends

 

lower than low

[zrlevin]

Michael, you forgot your sign! Here, I'll hold it for you.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( if the coins are so great then let him sell them outright and say i am submitting all of these and most all to all where not blue when i broke them out of their holders and conserved them then i know that blue brings mucho $$$$ and so i send them all in)))

 

Michael, personally, I agree with you here. If I had a PR-63 IHC, used MS-70, and it turned a pretty blue, when it came time to sell, I personally would tell the buyer that I was the one who turned it blue.

 

Unfortunately, this also speaks toward the downside of certification - unfortunately, certification relieves the seller of that responsibility, although personally, I still would disclose the facts.

 

James

[braddick]

They are the same coins. I would also assume that if they weren't, you would have heard a strenuous argument from Pat on that point.

Not true Tom.

I have no way of knowing where these coins were years or months or even weeks ago, nor do I frankly care.

 

Also, although I enjoy and agree with most of your points regarding coins in general nowhere should I be expected to substitute your judgement for mine.

It's not that I don't hear you and even consider your words, but certainly I can disagree with you as you do so easily, and vocally, with me.

[Elcontador]

One positive thing I think is coming from this thread:

 

It has become more obvious that just because a coin is in a first world slab does not necessarily mean that it is NOT a problem coin. For me, the slab is the starting point in my search. I have never liked most coins that I have seen.

[TomB]

Not true Tom.

I have no way of knowing where these coins were years or months or even weeks ago, nor do I frankly care.

 

Also, although I enjoy and agree with most of your points regarding coins in general nowhere should I be expected to substitute your judgement for mine.

It's not that I don't hear you and even consider your words, but certainly I can disagree with you as you do so easily, and vocally, with me.

My apologies go out to you, Pat. I had wrongly assumed that given your powers of observation, obtained from your raw intelligence and professional training, that your silence on the previous question was simply a way of acknowledging agreement. In the future, I will attempt to refrain from giving you this much credit.

[Excaliber]

I know many will disagree, but in my opinion, if these are good enough with NGC, and the experts there have decided to continue to grade and holder these Indian cents after all the discussion that has taken place, then it's good enough with me.

If it's not with you, simply don't support the market. Don't purchase them.

 

 

Best dam quote i've heard on this subject yet!

[goose3]

Micheal hits the nail on the head as usual.

 

Absolutely Pathetic way to make money. I don't know how some of you people sleep at night.

[braddick]

No problem Tom. We all make mistakes and it's a big man who can admit his so honestly, such as you did.

Your apology is graciously accepted.

[Excaliber]

Micheal hits the nail on the head as usual.

 

Absolutely Pathetic way to make money. I don't know how some of you people sleep at night.

 

I sleep just fine at night, i don't buy toned coins, don't blame those that wipe them with ms70 and get them graded by NGC and sell them, and i don't buy coins from some of the biggest shill bidders on EBAY which just happen to be "acquaintances" of yours and Michael's across the street.

 

So, all-in-all, i sleep just fine.

[goose3]

Well since you are apparently part of the "inner loop" of what goes on across the street with my acquaintences, the "shill bidders", why don't you enlighten me as to who you are talking about because I honestly don't have any idea.

 

I would not condone that much like I don't condone this garbage. There's a bit more to someone merely wiping a coin. The coin's appearance is DRASTICALLY changed and made much more aethetic with one goal in mind. The almighty benjamin.

[Excaliber]

There's a bit more to someone merely wiping a coin. The coin's appearance is DRASTICALLY changed and made much more aethetic with one goal in mind. The almighty benjamin.

 

Yea. putting a coin up for auction on EBAY and shill bidding the price up $300 has NOTHING to do with "The almighty Benjamin". I'm sure there is an acceptable excuse for doing that.

[MAULEMALL]

There's a bit more to someone merely wiping a coin. The coin's appearance is DRASTICALLY changed and made much more aethetic with one goal in mind. The almighty benjamin.

 

Yea. putting a coin up for auction on EBAY and shill bidding the price up $300 has NOTHING to do with "The almighty Benjamin". I'm sure there is an acceptable excuse for doing that.

[chinook]

There's a bit more to someone merely wiping a coin. The coin's appearance is DRASTICALLY changed and made much more aethetic with one goal in mind. The almighty benjamin.

 

Yea. putting a coin up for auction on EBAY and shill bidding the price up $300 has NOTHING to do with "The almighty Benjamin". I'm sure there is an acceptable excuse for doing that.

 

Are you referring to this auction? I think you may want to revisit the bidder's list.

 

ASE

[Excaliber]

There's a bit more to someone merely wiping a coin. The coin's appearance is DRASTICALLY changed and made much more aethetic with one goal in mind. The almighty benjamin.

 

Yea. putting a coin up for auction on EBAY and shill bidding the price up $300 has NOTHING to do with "The almighty Benjamin". I'm sure there is an acceptable excuse for doing that.

 

Are you referring to this auction? I think you may want to revisit the bidder's list.

 

ASE

 

 

No Chinook, the shill bidders across the street are much more blatant, it's widely known who they are, but it's accepted over there because they are "valued" members.

[WinstonWare]

Funny! I was thinking about how that made more sense now myself.

[IrishMike]

Its amazing to me what we consider ethical and what we get our shorts in a bundle about, especially from individuals who want to see things presented in the old black and white syndrome arguement. We defend the half truths and exaggerations that politicians fed us to get us involved in Powell's pottery barn disater, but can't wait to clobber someone who MS-70'ed a coin or make a judgment on a dealer one way or another based on casual contacts.

 

Let me relay this story, a few years back I was having dinner with 5 folks at a major coin show. Two of the participants were deep pocketed collectors of the series I mostly collect, one was not deep pocketed but very knowlegeable about them and the last party was a nationally know dealer of the series.

 

The dealer was relaying a story about the time he bought a collection of these coins from a son who had inherited them from is father upon his death. Many of these coins were tough dates. Unfortunately they had all been messed with over the years so he paid accordingly to acquire them. Now I am sitting there not wanting to hear the rest of the story. Kaboom, you guessed it, this dealer stated that he *cough* corrected the problem and sold these coins as mint state, AU etc. with no mention of their history or problems.

 

Oh yeah every one at the dinner is a member of at least one online coin forum.