SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMISMATICS TO COME OUT!!

[EZ_E]

 

Grading did come natural to me but I had excellent close vision! I could see better with the naked eye than with a loop. Now that I had LASIK surgery a year and a half ago, my vision has flip-flopped. I see great at a distance but can't see up close. So, that has affected my grading skills.

 

Well, gotta go, I have 5 minutes to learn Vietnamese.

[WinstonWare]

I am in agreement with Hays. I've gone through 5 books, 1 DVD, countless hours looking at coins and chatting about them and I still don't know much. There are simpler hobbies I'm sure.

[Bruceswar]

I am in agreement with Hays. I've gone through 5 books, 1 DVD, countless hours looking at coins and chatting about them and I still don't know much. There are simpler hobbies I'm sure.

 

But you are doing it the right way. Not just letting the TPG's guide you like sheep. I applaud you wanting to learn and do the right thing. You and Hays are coming alone quite fine if you ask me. Victor still has a eye for coins.

[WinstonWare]

Bruce, thanks for the kind words. I didn't mean to say that I disagree with your point about having your own knowledge and not simply accepting what the TPGs suggest, certainly I agree with you. I was just agreeing with Hays that there is much to know. At the very least, only being a few months in, there appears to be much to know.

[Bruceswar]

Bruce, thanks for the kind words. I didn't mean to say that I disagree with your point about having your own knowledge and not simply accepting what the TPGs suggest, certainly I agree with you. I was just agreeing with Hays that there is much to know. At the very least, only being a few months in, there appears to be much to know.

 

You are correct. There is alot to know. Take it slow and you will get to where you want in time.

[Brotherman]

 

Grading did come natural to me but I had excellent close vision! I could see better with the naked eye than with a loop. Now that I had LASIK surgery a year and a half ago, my vision has flip-flopped. I see great at a distance but can't see up close. So, that has affected my grading skills.

 

Well, gotta go, I have 5 minutes to learn Vietnamese.

 

cái giường

 

Hays

 

Edited to say that I looked up "bye-bye" in Vietnamese. The copy and paste

looked good but ườ replaced part of the message.

 

but I guess you knew that - it's been more than five minutes...

[EZ_E]

bye is tam biet (sp?) said like tom beat.

[Brotherman]

bye is tam biet (sp?) said like tom beat.

 

 

Yup, you proved my point...

 

Hays

[HaydenTubbs]

I love slabs

[Brotherman]

I love slabs

 

Hayden you are such a goof

 

Hays

[relicsncoins]

I think the problem most people run across about grading, is trying to master something that is subjective. Afterall, a grade is one persons oppinion of the coin which may differ from someone else, moreso in uncirculated grades. Back in the early 90's I used to go to coin shows specifically looking for certain Indian Heads that had a pretty significant price break between VF and XF, because I found that many dealers didn't know the difference. I think we can become proficient to the point of not getting ripped off, but how can you master something that is really just an oppinion of the coin.

 

JJ

[James_OldeTowne]

You know, there is simply too much emphasis placed on a coin's "grade". It's more important in today's market to buy a "number" than it is to buy a "coin"! I'm not kidding! When you browse through most any ad in Coin World, it takes up to six characters to spell out what coin it is - but multiples more space than that to discuss the grade. Take this example of a Morgan dollar:

 

1881-S PCGS MS-64 DMPL, looks MS-65+!

 

The date, "1881-S", took six characters, but the grade? 31 characters!! Since when did the grade become so important that it's worth five times the space as the date?

 

This is also why I have a personal pet-peeve when the grade on a slab is double or three times the size of the coin's date and mintmark.

 

Just another casual observation....

 

James

[Bruceswar]

to the top since the other thread was brought up...

[jesbroken]

Sorry Bruce for coming in so late on this, but I just now read it after your "apology" post. Now I know for a fact you have nothing to apologize for after having read the complete post. Many have offered opinions on various points of your post and one must respect and absorb all opinions. As to agreement, this cannot be cut and dried as the gray area permeates the issue.

Of course, you are 100% correct that coin grading is something that anyone in the market should and must learn to the best of their abilities. I hear a lot of responses about how hard it is, wonder why TPG's exist? Of course it is hard but if you learn only part of coin grading you are better off than relying on just anyone that you do not know or trust.

Yes, these companies are out to make money. Watch and see that NGC and PCGS both eventually slab cleaned/scratched coins as their market will demand it-MONEY!

One real reason for the complacency by the new and some old collectors is not just the convenience of TPG'S but that no other convenient method is available to them to learn. When I was first starting in the early 60's, there were coin shows at malls, halls, churches, and any other gathering space available each and every weekend within a short drive of Kingsport, TN where I lived. Going to these every chance one got was easy, free and highly educational. But then the 80's happened and it just wasn't cost effective for the dealers. There were also dozens of clubs that were not monetary but just for the pleasure of belonging. Gone!

There are many more reasons that people have become so reliant on slabs-not all are evil nor good, but they exist and have that right to do so.

I'm sorry I have ranted on so long.

Thanks for listening.

[Bruceswar]

We all have opinions on the matter, but people need to open up thier eyes some and see that TPG's are not the end all be all. I think every collector with a length of time in this hobby knows that.

[Newmismatist]

I was baffled as to what your "apology" post was about - this certainly explains it.

 

A couple of years ago I posted a thread ATS asking the question whether the TPGS were good for the hobby or a detriment - My own conclusion is that overall they (PCGS, NGC, ANACS & also ICG) are better for the hobby, but not without significant issues.

 

I grew up collecting coins in the 50s and 60s - way before there were TPGSs or even an organization like the original ANACS which would authenticate your coins so you'd know whether your 14-D Lincoln was genuine or not.

 

TPGSs have significantly reduced the fraud that used to exist - but the schemers and scammers always find a way to "work the system" and now we are faced with the difficulty of the scam artists and coin doctors who manipulate a coin's surface to "get the upgrade" and hence cheat the unsuspecting collector out of his (her) hard earned money. Added to that are the gimmicks - 1st strike - modern MS70s (that ought to get the collectors of modern coins excited) FT, FBL. etc and other artificial designations that "add value" to the coins - the end result being that collectors often pay lots of money for something that means little or nothing.

 

There are two very important things that collectors need to do BEFORE spending their hard earned money.

 

1) Learn to grade the coins that you collect

 

2) Become knowledgeable about what it is that you collect.

 

There is one other VERY important thing that anyone who spends significant money on a coin should ask themselves:

 

IF I TOOK THIS COIN OUT OF ITS PLASTIC HOLDER, WOULD IT BE WORTH WHAT I PAID FOR IT?

 

In other words are you paying the premium for the coin? Or are you paying for a plastic holder with a piece of paper that has someone else's opinion written on it?

 

JMHO

 

Bruce - you have nothing to apologize for

[Bruceswar]

Ron I think me and you agree pretty much all the way down. Hell I would all be for a slabbing company that would just put "Genuine" on the slab and leave off the grades. If coin A is submitted 5 times and 4 times it comes back MS 64 and the 5th time is MS 65.. Should this coin be worth more now? NO! It is the same coin hands down.

[bsshog40]

I'm thinking if it was 65 the first time, it was probably a nice coin til they broke it out of the holder 4 more times.

[Bruceswar]

I'm thinking if it was 65 the first time, it was probably a nice coin til they broke it out of the holder 4 more times.

 

The first time it was MS 64... then it upgraded on the f5th try...

[SkyMan]

Bruce,

 

You have ABSOLUTELY nothing to apologize for. While I don't agree with the statement in your title (I take it as a bit of hyperbole... good for starting a discussion), I do agree with most of your thoughts/comments. My position is very close to TomB's original post to this thread.

 

Clearly the TPGs cause all sorts of problems, however, it should be understood that in THIS day and era if there is enough of a demand for product X, then By Golly! somebody or some organization will produce product X. In this case there was a perceived need 20 years ago for a grading/authentication service, and Voila! it/they appeared. (Unfortunately that sort of demand is also the case nowadays driving the market for dipped and stripped white high grade coins or dipped and AT'ed type coins).

 

There are two basic areas that I would say that TPGs have helped ME. By looking at a wide variety of their slabs of series Z, let's say in my case Franklins, they have helped me to pretty much look at a coin and be able to asign a grade in my head to it. Let's be realistic, back before TPGs the grading for BU's was not delineated into as many single points. It was more along the lines of BU, Choice BU, Gem BU, and Ultra-Gem BU, e.g. 60, 63, 65, 67. Now of course, at this point in time I can look at a TPGs grade and agree or disagree with it, but originally looking at this mass of material was a help. The second area that TPGs have helped is authentication. Other than these two main areas I would tend to agree with you.

 

You have NOTHING to apologize for!

[Bruceswar]

My title was more a pull in line. I know there are much worse things than slabs. As to the points you raise, I think any coin buying person with knowledge of a series really does not need slabs to tell them how pretty or what grade thier coins are in. Franklins for example. For you either it has it or it does not. Whatever "it" is is for you to decide. Remember you post about how you had to NCS some coins to get the correct designation? How did that make you feel knowing what they were. What if the slabbing companies just put MS or VF on the slab and let the collectors decide what the coin is worth. Authenication does not mean the coin has to be graded. I would be fine with a slab that read.. 1914 D Lincoln 1C Genuine MS then there coding number... Tells me all I need to know about the coin. From there I can make my own decision as to its grade. If something like this were to happen, it would ease alot of the pressures of coins. It will never happen since PCGS and NGC are businesses. They are in it to make money. But you get where I am coming from... Coin A ... is it nicer than Coin B? Look and decide for yourself.. Peolple who want to argue "My collection would lose alot of value" If you by PQ coins then come time to sell you will be just fine. True monsters would not fall, but the wannabe coins would.

[Zoins]

Recently I've started to think that BB sliders may be where some good deals can be found given the large premiums paid for slabbed coins. For a BB slider, sometimes it will grade and sometimes it won't. Some say the submitter also influences this and the dealer may have tried to get it slabbed umpteen times already but if you find a coin that is raw and looks nice enough to possibly be a BB slider, it might be an opportunity. Of course, to do this, you have to know what you are looking at.

[Bruceswar]

What a concept... know what you are buying before you buy it. In this information age it is soo easy to arm yourself with a good line of defense. Knowledge.

[Zoins]

What a concept... know what you are buying before you buy it. In this information age it is soo easy to arm yourself with a good line of defense. Knowledge.

Somehow this thread reminds me of Greg's advice in another thread but a little more than Internet knowledge is needed there.

[Bruceswar]

Knowledge can come from any place...Internet, books, etc etc. All I am saying is arm yourself with as much as possible.

[Zoins]

Knowledge can come from any place...Internet, books, etc etc. All I am saying is arm yourself with as much as possible.

I agree knowledge and desire to learn is important but don't forget knowledge through experimentation

[James_OldeTowne]

to the top since the other thread was brought up...

Man, I must have missed out something really juicy! But I enjoyed seeing this thread bumped back up. I continue to believe that the largest, most egregious problem propagated by slabbing is that scammers are MUCH more sophisticated than at any time in the past. Certification raised the bar, but unfortunately, deceitful parties have jumped much higher than the bar has been set.

[MarkFeld]

Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!

 

I recently read an article in one of the coin magazines that said "Some experts have learned to grade". That should not be SOME it should be every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins.

 

With the introduction of slabs people are buying coins they would have never bought before since they can Trust the TPG's Grading and look up a price via a price guide or Auction Archives. I see people buying all sorts of early proofs and knowing little info on the strinking, aspects or other things about the coin. All they know is they like it and it s a proof, maybe even a toned one. One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.

 

There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins! Now we even have sellers hyping OGH's like the coins should be undergraded and a lock for an upgrade! Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in? Take whatever the TPG says cover it up... and if you cannot tell the grade on the coin the don't buy it as you don't know enough to.

 

Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says. I recently took a look at the registry, which in most part is a joke, unless you just want to show off your coins. I like that aspect of it but a set with no Pictures is pointless and a waste, (IMHO).

 

I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge! I have also seen registry sets with coins and photos and there are some coins in the set that are clearly wrongfully graded!

 

The crackout game is a joke as well, since after all its the same coin no matter what number they put on the holder. Coin grading has got a bit tighter as of late on certain series' but it should not matter how the TPG's are grading at a certain period of time.

 

Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade. Think of all the early American coins dipped and stripped. Before a slab it would not matter if it got to the next level as a dealer could sell the coins on its merits with the original skin on it. Dipped out coins suck.

 

If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense! You can still get a lot of [embarrassing lack of self control] in slabs and not only the lesser slabs! Just take a look at Ebay and see all the coins being sold outside of slabs that have problems! Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.

 

You say slabs offer a good protection and keep coins from getting hurt? It seems a great many coins survived many years without slabs. All slabs have done is made us less carefull when holding coins. If you drop a slab its ok since it is a plastic, unless it a new ANACS slab, then it might crack.

 

Now take away the slab and I bet you are much more careful with the coin. If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. Until then, read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money. Thanks and debate away!

That is a somewhat baffling post (blaming "slabs" instead of the buyers and sellers) especially in light of the following post of yours, in which you indicated you had no sympathy for stupid people who were taken advantage of by coin doctors.

I 100% agree with greg. If you are dumb enough to bid on these very poor fakes you need to learn the hard way. Even the slightest bit of info will keep you away from these. There is deception and then there is plain stupid. The stupid people of this world cannot be helped I am sorry to say. Education is the key to not getting screwed in any facit of life.

Why not apply the same attitude to buyers and sellers of slabs?

[okbustchaser]

Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!

 

I recently read an article in one of the coin magazines that said "Some experts have learned to grade". That should not be SOME it should be every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins.

 

With the introduction of slabs people are buying coins they would have never bought before since they can Trust the TPG's Grading and look up a price via a price guide or Auction Archives. I see people buying all sorts of early proofs and knowing little info on the strinking, aspects or other things about the coin. All they know is they like it and it s a proof, maybe even a toned one. One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.

 

There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins! Now we even have sellers hyping OGH's like the coins should be undergraded and a lock for an upgrade! Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in? Take whatever the TPG says cover it up... and if you cannot tell the grade on the coin the don't buy it as you don't know enough to.

 

Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says. I recently took a look at the registry, which in most part is a joke, unless you just want to show off your coins. I like that aspect of it but a set with no Pictures is pointless and a waste, (IMHO).

 

I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge! I have also seen registry sets with coins and photos and there are some coins in the set that are clearly wrongfully graded!

 

The crackout game is a joke as well, since after all its the same coin no matter what number they put on the holder. Coin grading has got a bit tighter as of late on certain series' but it should not matter how the TPG's are grading at a certain period of time.

 

Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade. Think of all the early American coins dipped and stripped. Before a slab it would not matter if it got to the next level as a dealer could sell the coins on its merits with the original skin on it. Dipped out coins suck.

 

If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense! You can still get a lot of [embarrassing lack of self control] in slabs and not only the lesser slabs! Just take a look at Ebay and see all the coins being sold outside of slabs that have problems! Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.

 

You say slabs offer a good protection and keep coins from getting hurt? It seems a great many coins survived many years without slabs. All slabs have done is made us less carefull when holding coins. If you drop a slab its ok since it is a plastic, unless it a new ANACS slab, then it might crack.

 

Now take away the slab and I bet you are much more careful with the coin. If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. Until then, read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money. Thanks and debate away!

That is a somewhat baffling post (blaming "slabs" instead of the buyers and sellers) especially in light of the following post of yours, in which you indicated you had no sympathy for stupid people who were taken advantage of by coin doctors.

I 100% agree with greg. If you are dumb enough to bid on these very poor fakes you need to learn the hard way. Even the slightest bit of info will keep you away from these. There is deception and then there is plain stupid. The stupid people of this world cannot be helped I am sorry to say. Education is the key to not getting screwed in any facit of life.

Why not apply the same attitude to buyers and sellers of slabs?

 

 

I personally DO apply the same attitude towards buyers and sellers of slabs. Anyone who is not willing to learn the first thing about his hobby--whatever hobby that may be--needs to find another hobby.

 

If one is going to totally depend on some printed piece of paper stuck into a slab rather than doing a little study prior to purchasing an expensive (at whatever level expensive is to him) then he IMO has no right to complain if he gets stuck.

[jom]

Great post though Feld has a good point.

 

My favorite part was the "Some experts have learned to grade" part. This seems to imply that experts had not yet LEARNED to grade. If so, how could they have been experts to begin with? Now that's baffeling.

 

One thing slabs have done is created an opportunity for more competition among dealers. Now any dolt can buy/sell coins to the public. Is this a good thing?

 

jom