Are PCGS Coins Treated Equally in Registry Scoring???
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QUESTIONS ABOUT NGC COINS AND PCGS COINS SUBMITTED TO REGISTRY. FIRST, 65% OF MY 200+ COLLECTION ARE NGC COINS. HERES AN ANALYSIS OF STATE QTR REGISTRY SCORES. COMPARISION OF THE 70 DESIGNATION AWARDED TO NGC COINS.

 

ANALYSIS OF NGC VS PCGS

 

NGC CLAD SILVER PCGS CLAD SILVER

1999 7343/766 11104/472 8108/11 13217/5

2000 6077/681 10,285/472 8369/1 12702/8

2001 4632/597 6705/1043 6166/10 9977/8

 

TOTAL 18052/4401 28094/2357 22643/21 35896/21

11.3% NGC GRADED PF70 .06% PCGS COINS GRADED PR70

 

11% NGC SET TWICE SCORE OF 95% COMPLETE PCGS SET

55% NGC SET 12 TIMES HIGHER THAN 95% COMPLETE PCGS SET

 

NGC PF 70' TREND AT $75 VS PCGS $1000+

 

NGC ANNOUNCES GAP IS CLOSING?? WITH THESE NUMBERS HARD TO BELIEVE.

 

NGC USES SAME GRADING STANDARDS AS PCGS. WHY SUCH A DISPARITY BETWEEN HIGHER GRADES? tg64155@aol.com

Edited by tgilliams
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I think the point is that NGC gives out PR-70's more than PCGS, but since you can't examine each coin in the holder, you're just looking at numbers on a holder and can't judge the coin on its merits.

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The concensus opinion is that PCGS is intentionally not giving out the 70 grade anymore. Whether this is from a liability standpoint or a marketing standpoint is anybody's guess. But the end result is an ever increasing demand (and thus price) for the very few coins already annointed thusly.

 

NGC has decided (and rightly so in my mind) to more freely grant the grade - probably on the proportions truly deserving, although there are always coins that turn and that have minor imperfections missed. Since the supply of NGC 70's is greater and the demand for PCGS pieces of plastic is greater due to their Registry being more complete, the price of the PCGS coins are bid into the stratosphere.

 

A proper arbitrage would be to seek NGC PF70's that are truly spectacular and worthy of the grade, paying a mere fraction of the price demanded for those other pieces of plastic - the majority of which are undeserving by popular decree!

 

Yeah, ok - the beer is flowery and thus my prose! wink.gif

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Sock it to me! I will be greatly appreciative of any NGC graded gold coin that I can buy more cheaply than a PCGS coin. My own experience with gold coins is that I have more gold coins that are overgraded or undergraded than with NGC (mostly undergraded). Additionally, PCGS will not grade most toned coins above MS64.

 

This is money in my pocket, because I can buy undergraded coins in PCGS holders and cross them to the grade that they should be. Let the Chicken Littles on the PCGS site run in circles crying "the sky is falling" on anything slabbed NGC and I will keep buying their undergraded PCGS coins. Because you know what, at auction, the coin matters most not the superfluous piece of plastic that it resides in.

 

So,clucking herds of Chicken Littles with your little beaks turned skyward sell me your PCGS gold coins at a discount. I am here to help! tongue.giftongue.gif

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PR/MS70 is a completely different animal when I think of PCGS and NGC grading.

NGC does, in my opinion, too freely hand out the 70 grade.

If a coin has defects that are visible to the naked eye it souldn't be in anyone's 70 holder.

The above will only make sense though if you realize I believe NGC is square on the other MS/PR grades, for the most part.

a PR68DCAM Ike will look like one graded by PCGS in PR68DCAM.

It is only the "70" grade that all Services are messing with.

 

bottom line: Since when did 70 stop meaning 'perfect'?

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Since when did 70 stop meaning 'perfect'?

 

Just wondering... What does MS70 or PF70 mean? That is, what is it intended to mean? I thought that a 70 is intended to represent the theoretical state of perfection.

 

In that case, there should have been NO 70's ever given out. Theoretically, nothing is perfect once you act upon it (even by looking at it!). I'm not just trying to quote Heisenberg now, but that there needs to be a distinction between theory and actuality!

 

EVP

 

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I thought that the definition of MS/PF70 was a coin from a perfect planchet just as it left the dies. That doesn't mean that it's perfect and could encompass many many of today's high quality coinage.

 

Who cares what NGC's standard is for 70, as long as they consistently apply that standard then the market will adjust. We all know PCGS's standard - they don't exist (except for that one submission).

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I haven't seen NGC's definition, but PCGS's definition for MS-70 allows for strike flaws like struck-through fragments as long as the coin is mark-free otherwise. Interesting, huh? PR-70 should have no defects.

 

I've owned a MS-70 gold piece that had 2 small fragments struck through, so I've seen that it is true.

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Who knows? Maybe it's somewhere in the middle, but just as much as PCGS's policy may not be working for the 70 grade, for different reasons, neither is NGC's.

But, it matter not to me as NO coin I collect is close to that grade nor am I anytime soon going to seek those coins out.

 

The "Modern" craze is played IMHO and I'm enjoying myself much more being satisfied with coins that have "personality" (read: NOT MS/PR70's!!). laugh.gif

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One of NGC's leaders fought the '70' grade-- for many, many! years...!!! He was quoted a number of times, stating his view that there is no such coin, and NGC would not! grade one at that level!!!

Times change, people move on... could it have been politics, public sentiment,

internal pressures...???

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I agree. I have unloaded most of my "top-pop" pieces that can be purchased by those with a lot of money, and have started looking for those jewels that take going to each table at a show and maybe coming away with a single coin or two.

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

FYI, the following are NGC's criteria for applying the MS/PF-70 grade to a coin:

 

1) It must have been struck on a problem-free planchet.

2) It must be fully struck for that particular date.

3) It must be free of obvious marks up to a magnification of 5X.

4) It must be either entirely untoned or display attractive toning.

 

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I've owned several NGC PF70 ASEs. I noticed there were some popping up for sale on Teletrade. I have long been buying them from the mint and giving them out as gifts for Xmas to my barber, employees etc. I purchased the Teletrade coins to resell on Ebay as there were hardly any for sell. I was making 30-40% on them with no reserve and starting them out at the price I paid for them. They sold for 3-5 times what a PCGS 69 was selling for.

 

My challenge on the other board was this, if you truly believe that NGC overgrades them, then buy PCGS 69's and submit them to NGC for 70's and make a ton of cash. After making this challenge 5 times, no one has taken me up on this. No one is willing to put their money where their mouth is.

 

It's really easy to make blanket statements about PCGS 70's, but most of them I have seen would not make it into the same slab if resubmitted.

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I just want to thank everyone for your Feedback. I do feel that PCGS does undergrade to uphold their "percieved" belief that they are far superior to NGC. The gap is closing and I truly believe that NGC will claim the top spot. Just a matter of time before "politic's" and the collecting public realize this. Maybe NGC could dedicate additional funds to "Dispell this Disparity" through advertising dollars. Money well-spent by NGC, for both the firm and NGC collectors. I support NGC 100% and for that reason I chose to allow their High Regard & Professionalism to protect the value of my collection. Just wanted to see how other collector's perceive this issue. Your time in responding it sincerely appreciated.

 

Tom Gilliams

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"Perception is Reality", particularly on these boards. The people in the other Registry have convinced themselves, and I suppose, others in believing that there is a difference between themselves and the other services. This is why, obstensibly, they will not accept NGC coins in their Registry.

 

Most people here do not think that there is a difference. In fact, PCGS coins are more variable then NGC in grading. The don't even follow their own standards of grading. NGC coins are a bargain, at these levels and I have been buying all that I can afford.

 

Eventually collectors will catch on to PCGS's grade swindle techniques. When they do, slab prices will equalize, much to the detriment of PCGS slabs. They should be and are running scared about this position that they have placed themselves in. tongue.gif

 

PS: Would you not please write in Capital Letters. It drives people crazy trying to read it. You have good ideas which would have better impact if you wrote in lower case. Thank you. tongue.gif

Edited by Oldtrader3
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Hi Oldtrader:

 

I'm a fairly new collector, but have researched extensively. You just validated what I have thought and read. A perfect example was a study by CDN. It's been a while since I read the article, so my #'s may not be exact, but very close.

 

CDN conducted a study on coins sold at a premium over the asked price. Results of study showed 63.8% of PCGS coins vs. 63.2% (very small margin) NGC coins sold at a premuim. Considerable drop for ICG around 36%, PCI was around 30%. Can't remember ANACS, but think low 40%. 65% of my 200 certified coins are NGC. Big spread on proof Lincolns, so I collect PCGS.

 

Also my 1999/2002 Proof Silver/Clad State Qtrs also PCGS. Reason, only 19 or so PCGS are graded PR70DCAM vs. over 1,000 NGC qtrs. Feel my PCGS PR69DCAMS have a higher intrisnic and return on my investment due to rarity of the 70 designation. Right or wrong on the PCGS grading practices. Any more feedback from a veteran collector like yourself would be appreciated. My email is tg64155@aol.com. Tom Gilliams tg64155@aol.com

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Tom: I have, at last count, about 26 boxes of NGC/PCGS certified coins. Of these 520 coins, about 50% are PCGS. That ratio is changing though because I presently am trying to buy more NGC Certified coins to protect my investment.

 

I welcome your private comments but I am quit ill at the moment. So, I may be erratic in responding. You can write me privately through this board. I do not like to publically state my e-mail address. Thanks for the memo.

CDR (Charlie) tongue.gif

 

 

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