First submission: body bagged! Fake Coin!

[Oldtrader3]

There have been several threads on this site about Bela Pratt designed Indian gold coins (or incuse design, if you prefer), including a WYNTK post which had detailed pictures of counterfeits. These series of quarter and half-eagles are notoriously hard to grade and counterfeits are very good. They fool even seasoned collectors.

[WinstonWare]

The book that I am currently reading has an insightful passage on fake coins

 

All reputable dealers will guarantee that the coins they sell are true, and most will put this in writing. If a coin should turn out to be fake, nearly all dealers will take it back virtually at any time and refund the money paid or exchange it for a true coin. The dealers' reputations depend on selling authentic coins

 

That makes a lot of sense to me. To bad it doesn't make sense to this dealer!

 

Edited to correct spelling - sorry

[WaxonWaxov]

The book that I am currently reading has an insightful passage on fake coins

 

All reputable dealers will guarantee that the coins they sell are true, and most will put this in writing. If a coin should turn out to be fake, nearly all dealers will take it back virtually at any time and refund the money paid or exchange it for a true coin. The dealers' reputations depend on selling authentic coins

 

That makes a lot of sense to me. To bad it doesn't make sense to this dealer!

 

Edited to correct spelling - sorry

 

Oh, yea. This this is just the opposite.

 

He claims that he puts in the fine print "all coins sold as is with no warranty... "

 

My response to that is "Well, if that's allowed, I could photocopy a $100 bill, put it on Ebay with that disclaimer, then send the fake and go neener neener neener"

 

 

 

UPDATE: PayPal has asked for "certification" that the coin is fake. I'm goingto fax them a copy of the NGC invoice, as well as a photocopy of the body bag and coin. We'll see

[MAULEMALL]

It's looking good for you.

[jtryka]

Did NGC actually declare it fake, or for "questionable authenticity"?

[WaxonWaxov]

Did NGC actually declare it fake, or for "questionable authenticity"?

 

Exact Words: "NOT GENUINE"

[WinstonWare]

WaxonWaxov, do you have a picture of this coin or can you take one? I'd be intersted to see it.

[WaxonWaxov]

WaxonWaxov, do you have a picture of this coin or can you take one? I'd be intersted to see it.

 

No. It's at my office. I might be able to pick it up and scan it before the weekend is over.

[WaxonWaxov]

 

Just posting the latest in the Saga. I guess if something life this happens to someone else, they can use this thread as a what to do tutorial.

 

I guess if people don't care, they don't have to read it.

 

Anyhow,

 

I got an email from PayPal today, stating that the scans of the body bag and invoice were not good enough. They want a letter on NGC letterhead with address, phone number, etc. Never mind that all that is on the invoice.

 

Anyhow, I called NGC and Audrey, who is a sweetheart, was nice enough to fax me a letter on NGC letterhead stating the coin was rejected due to being not genuine.

 

I faxed that to PayPal a few minutes ago. I'm afraid that PayPal is going to push back and say they need the name of the specific person who graded the coin.

 

I think the bottom line is that PayPal gets more revenue from the person who sold me the coin than from me and they figure if they stone wall me enough I will just lay down and take it in the a** for $390. Not me! I told the guy at PayPal on the phone today that if I had to hitch hike from Chicago to San Jose and camp out in Meg Whitman's office to get satisfactionm then that is what I will do.

 

over

 

I will keep you posted. This thing should be decided in the next few days.

[MunkyMan95]

Good luck Waxonwaxov. You never know really what you'll get when dealing with ebay. Hope everything works out alright.

[WaxonWaxov]

Well,

 

PayPal has ruled in my favor. They required me to send the coin back.

 

So I sent is USPS Priority Mail, with Certified Retur receipt. So when he gets it, he must sign a post card thingy, which is sent back to me.

 

It's intetresting how PayPal has this whole system set up where I entered the tracking number and they follow it, etc.

 

I'm still prepared for the worst. He could 1)claim when he opened the package it was empty or 2)claim the coin I sent back is not what he sent me originally. I'm guessing it will be number 2.

 

I won't feel I've won until I have a little stack of twenty dollar bills in my hot little hand.

 

to be continued...

[MunkyMan95]

eBay just isn't what it used to be. Years ago when you had a problem with any order, sellers would take matters into their own hands, resolve the issue, and refund your money very promptly. Now it's all about how this guy can make a quick buck. Sad. Really sad.

[jtryka]

eBay just isn't what it used to be. Years ago when you had a problem with any order, sellers would take matters into their own hands, resolve the issue, and refund your money very promptly. Now it's all about how this guy can make a quick buck. Sad. Really sad.

 

Well, there are still some sellers that are like that, many of whom you will find on this board. Unfortunately it does seem that eBay and Paypal are really focused on pleasing the big powersellers, and not so much with the honest little guy. Of course buyers also bear some of the responsibility, especially when they think they are getting something for nothing, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Waxon paid a fair price for a genuine example of this coin, but this seller just chose the low road as far as I am concerned. Too bad.

[MunkyMan95]

eBay just isn't what it used to be. Years ago when you had a problem with any order, sellers would take matters into their own hands, resolve the issue, and refund your money very promptly. Now it's all about how this guy can make a quick buck. Sad. Really sad.

 

Well, there are still some sellers that are like that, many of whom you will find on this board. Unfortunately it does seem that eBay and Paypal are really focused on pleasing the big powersellers, and not so much with the honest little guy. Of course buyers also bear some of the responsibility, especially when they think they are getting something for nothing, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Waxon paid a fair price for a genuine example of this coin, but this seller just chose the low road as far as I am concerned. Too bad.

 

I agree that some sellers are great! Some will go out of their way still to please you, but others just want your money.

[Morgannut]

I hate to say it, but I try to avoid anyone in South Florida, South Boston, Watts in LA, and any other place where the only coins at coin clubs are likely stolen---

--------------

Ebay should be ashamed of their behavior--I would have contacted the Secret Service on their butts

[WinstonWare]

South Boston

We like to call it Southie and it probably isn't the best place to find investment grade coins.

[cpm9ball]

I hate to say it, but I try to avoid anyone in South Florida, South Boston, Watts in LA, and any other place where the only coins at coin clubs are likely stolen---

--------------

Ebay should be ashamed of their behavior--I would have contacted the Secret Service on their butts

 

You should talk. There are a bunch of thieves on Capitol Hill.

 

Chris from South Florida

[WaxonWaxov]

You should talk. There are a bunch of thieves on Capitol Hill.

 

Chris from South Florida

 

 

Ha ha ha

 

 

 

Nowadays it's hard to generalize about where an Ebay seller is located. I was recently ripped-off (for about $10, not coin related) from a seller in Tennessee.

 

As far as South Boston goes, sorry Winstonware, but I think.... well let's just say that I'm NOT a fan of the Kennedys and leave it at that.

[WinstonWare]

Me either. Your not going to hurt my feelings with that sentiment.

[Stanley]

I hate to say it, but I try to avoid anyone in South Florida, South Boston, Watts in LA, and any other place where the only coins at coin clubs are likely stolen---

 

The people in Washington don't steal, they seize.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WaxonWaxov]

Well, as of this morning I had received a full refund from PayPal which I will be vacating from my account ASAP.

 

Lessons learned:

 

1) There's too much fake recessed Indian Head style gold coins out there to buy unslabbed ones unless you can hold them your hand first.

 

2) Always make payments larger than you care to lose on PayPal using a credit card, not from direct ACH from your bank account or PayPal balance. That way you can go through your credit card company and get a refund which will likely be much faster.

 

3) Remain nice in all your communication, no matter how nasty the other person gets. That way you can use his nastyness against him, but he can't do the same to you.

 

4) If NGC body bags the coin for being fake, call Audrey there and ask for a letter to faxed to you on NGC letterhead with the reason the coin was rejected. That is all PayPal will accept.

 

5) Make it clear to PayPal what you will not back down. The phrase I used was "I don't care if I have to hitch hike from Chicago to San Jose and camp out in Meg Whitman's office. I am going to get satisfaction here."

 

 

The End.

[MAULEMALL]

Big Time Congrats man

[Brotherman]

Well, as of this morning I had received a full refund from PayPal which I will be vacating from my account ASAP.

 

Lessons learned:

 

1) There's too much fake recessed Indian Head style gold coins out there to buy unslabbed ones unless you can hold them your hand first.

 

2) Always make payments larger than you care to lose on PayPal using a credit card, not from direct ACH from your bank account or PayPal balance. That way you can go through your credit card company and get a refund which will likely be much faster.

 

3) Remain nice in all your communication, no matter how nasty the other person gets. That way you can use his nastyness against him, but he can't do the same to you.

 

4) If NGC body bags the coin for being fake, call Audrey there and ask for a letter to faxed to you on NGC letterhead with the reason the coin was rejected. That is all PayPal will accept.

 

5) Make it clear to PayPal what you will not back down. The phrase I used was "I don't care if I have to hitch hike from Chicago to San Jose and camp out in Meg Whitman's office. I am going to get satisfaction here."

 

 

The End.

 

Words to live by.

Congrats!

 

Hays

[jtryka]

Glad that all worked out for you!

[pendragon1998]

 

2) Always make payments larger than you care to lose on PayPal using a credit card, not from direct ACH from your bank account or PayPal balance. That way you can go through your credit card company and get a refund which will likely be much faster.

 

 

ALWAYS PAY WITH CREDIT CARDS ONLINE - not debit card, not gift card, not cash (shudder), not checks, not bank account info (shudder, shudder). If you can at all help it, pay with credit card. I realize you can't always do that, but you're so much better protected when you use a CC, there's almost no excuse not to.

[WaxonWaxov]

- not debit card ...

 

I work in the banking industry. If your debit card has a Visa or MasterCard logo, you're covered just like a regular card.

[pendragon1998]

Yes, but say someone takes your debit card number and runs with it:

 

(1) Your checking account is emptied for at least a day (minimum).

(2) You have to go to a great deal of hassle just to get your funds temporarily credited back to you (proving fraud, proving your ID, etc) - and then you may have to wait to get the money back on a permanent basis.

(3) In the meantime, you've got checks bouncing, electronic transfers being returned, etc.

(4) If you were unlucky enough to write a check to a merchant who gets it returned to him, then doesn't realize it was due to fraud, you could have a warrant served for your arrest.

(5) You've got to go to a lot of trouble changing account numbers and changing all your online (or other) bill pay information on numerous sites.

 

VS: Someone takes your credit card number and runs with it:

 

(1) You get a large bill in the mail, which you can dispute and not have to pay until the dispute is resolved.

(2) You're only liable for $50 maximum by law and many issuers even comp that.

(3) You've still got a checking account full of cash while the issue is being resolved.

(4) Some issuers automatically detect fraud and stop payment (e.g. your card is used in multiple states/countries for large amounts in one day)

 

No, you're not being covered "just like a regular card." The problem is so many consumers think they are indeed being covered just like a regular card. Those 'fake' MasterCards and Visas issued for use as debit cards are responsible for a great deal of needless trouble.

[WaxonWaxov]

....VS: Someone takes your credit card number and runs with it:...

(2) You're only liable for $50 maximum by law and many issuers even comp that.

....

(4) Some issuers automatically detect fraud and stop payment (e.g. your card is used in multiple states/countries for large amounts in one day)

 

both are true for your Visa or MC branded debit card.

 

No, you're not being covered "just like a regular card." The problem is so many consumers think they are indeed being covered just like a regular card. Those 'fake' MasterCards and Visas issued for use as debit cards are responsible for a great deal of needless trouble.

 

Wrong. Dude, I may be a newbie on this board, but I'm not a newbie to the Card Industry. What I said above is true... period.

[Brotherman]

I still say the best thing to use online is one of those pre-paid credit cards. It

is the ONLY form of payment that I use online. When I see something I want

to purchase I put the amount on the card – I also usually add 5 or 10 extra

bucks in case the shipping is more than I thought or taxes are applied

or whatever. Afterward, I immediately go online and make my purchase.

 

Not only is this card protected like a regular credit card but the thieves CAN’T

run up any charges! THE THEIVES GET NOTHING! I like that.

 

There is another benefit to this card over all other forms of payment

mentioned. The credit card company that holds this card only knows my

name and address – no other personal information is attached to this

card – not my SS number, no banks, no credit information. You cannot use

this card to obtain other forms of credit, so you are not only protected

against fraudulent charges – you are also protected against identity

theft.

 

The downside is you have to put money on the card before you use it and

each time you do it costs 5 bucks. Not a big problem for me as there is a

Rite-Aid in the same shopping center were I work. That extra 5 bucks? I

just think of it as insurance against identity theft.

 

Hays

[WaxonWaxov]

^ interesting post.