The Absolute #1 Problem With 3rd party Grading

[dragon]

The #1 problem as I see it is:

 

Slabs protect the value of the hideously ugly, overgraded, or otherwise undesirable coins. No matter how 'bad' a slabbed coin is, the holder will give it a certain value, even if it's just 80% of bluesheet bid, it's still a sort of guaranty of value for even the worst coins, and usually a heck of a lot more than if it was a raw coin.

 

Example: You can take the absolute worst PCGS/NGC graded common date MS66 Peace dollar, like one that you couldn't sell for $30.00 as a raw coin,,,,but as long as it's in an MS66 holder, it's worth a few hundred dollars, even on a sight unseen basis.

 

Ohhhhhhhh, so you say I'm only talking about extreme cases and a miniscule overall number of coins like the above example, and that the services routinely take all coins like these off the market.....think again.

 

Yes or no?

[coinman1794]

The #1 problem as I see it is:

 

Slabs protect the value of the hideously ugly, overgraded, or otherwise undesirable coins. No matter how 'bad' a slabbed coin is, the holder will give it a certain value, even if it's just 80% of bluesheet bid, it's still a sort of guaranty of value for even the worst coins, and usually a heck of a lot more than if it was a raw coin.

 

Example: You can take the absolute worst PCGS/NGC graded common date MS66 Peace dollar, like one that you couldn't sell for $30.00 as a raw coin,,,,but as long as it's in an MS66 holder, it's worth a few hundred dollars, even on a sight unseen basis.

 

Ohhhhhhhh, so you say I'm only talking about extreme cases and a miniscule overall number of coins like the above example, and that the services routinely take all coins like these off the market.....think again.

 

Yes or no?

 

The answer is: yes and no ! The services will take the rediculous ones off the market, but, the ones that are just very low-end are going to stay. Also, NGC has been very good about improving the appearance of ugly gems, through NCS, when the coins are submitted through the free appearance review service. If you have a coin that is too ugly to be a 65 etc, they will fix it for free!

[keithdagen]

Dragon,

 

Good point, and it's not all that uncommon. I bought a NGC 66 Barber Dime that was butt ugly for a song, sent it to NGC for Appearance Review and got a nasty print removed. Sold the coin on E-Bay after having it for about four weeks, and made a tidy profit. Nice for me, but the original seller could have done better.

 

And the danger is not so much the ugly coins in my opinion, it's the borderline coins. Coins that are not as attractive, but if cracked, would come back lower. A purchaser might not know the coin is overgraded, and then may be out value in the future when trying to sell the coin.

[jom]

You say it is the #1 problem but HOW is it a problem? Are you saying it's a problem because it drags down the value of the nice coins? If not, then what is the problem? Because, to me, I don't really care because I don't buy crappy coins if I can help it.

 

Now I'm not saying I disagree with you because I think that there are MANY coins out there are just plain old ugly. There are very few coins out there that I'd consider buying in ANY series. Of course, it just comes down to the eye of the beholder I suppose...

 

jom

[braddick]

Dragon,

I'd love to buy an NGC or PCGS Peace dollar in "$30.00 Ugly" MS66! That would be a novel coin to own.

 

I get your point though, eye sore coins residing in holders.

But, I've seen them in flips too.

 

Either way, it is why a coin should be sight seen for final determination of purchase.

 

"Ugly" though is skin deep. Hidden problem are not. It is the latter the Services protect us from. It's up to us then to figure out what we find attractive or not.

[dragon]

Hi Jom,

 

I say it's a big problem because it takes a LOT of liquidty out of the marketplace, in an otherwise thinly capitalized market to begin with.

 

And no, I have NO idea what my new title means.

[michael]

dragon summed it up really very well

 

for me

 

this is the most important truthful thing that has been or will ever be posted on any coin boards

 

but many are in fear so i am sure there will be many comments denying what dragon said

 

sincerely michael

[lclugza]

I would say the biggest problem is grading inconsistancy. A coin that's MS65 one day may be MS64 or MS66 another day. And another thing is, a lot of people will keep resubmitting a coin until it comes back overgraded. This has the effect of lowering overall grading standards.

[TomB]

While I will agree with dragon's issue as a major problem, I have a different one. Mainly-

 

People should be knowledgeable enough about numismatics to realize that the holder information is an experienced opinion and that that opinion should only be there as a somewhat independent guide as to the particular coin's market acceptance!

[jom]

People should be knowledgeable enough about numismatics to realize that the holder information is an experienced opinion and that that opinion should only be there as a somewhat independent guide as to the particular coin's market acceptance!

 

God forbid a lowly collector actually grading a coin himself. After all the ALMIGHTY has spoken in the form of a piece of plastic with an embedded label telling us not only the value but whether it's worthy of our collection.

 

Get off your high horse and join the real world, Tom.

 

jom

[true_grade]

The #1 problem as I see it is:

 

Slabs protect the value of the hideously ugly, overgraded, or otherwise undesirable coins. No matter how 'bad' a slabbed coin is, the holder will give it a certain value, even if it's just 80% of bluesheet bid, it's still a sort of guaranty of value for even the worst coins, and usually a heck of a lot more than if it was a raw coin.

 

Example: You can take the absolute worst PCGS/NGC graded common date MS66 Peace dollar, like one that you couldn't sell for $30.00 as a raw coin,,,,but as long as it's in an MS66 holder, it's worth a few hundred dollars, even on a sight unseen basis.

 

Ohhhhhhhh, so you say I'm only talking about extreme cases and a miniscule overall number of coins like the above example, and that the services routinely take all coins like these off the market.....think again.

 

Yes or no?

 

Well this ought to anger a few folks:

 

Grading services are basically for those insecure with their knowledge, education, and skills in what is supposed to be their passion.

 

OK, let the hate begin.

[dragon]

true grade,

 

It was not the intention of this thread to elicit hate or anger from anyone, just to state my opinions based on my knowledge and experiences.

 

dragon

[Elcontador]

While Dragon has a point, I think inconsistency is the biggest evil of all, as a prior poster mentioned. I don't know how much this applies to NGC, but it IMO it applies in a major way to PCGS.

 

Due to the many changes in the PCGS holder over time, one can get an idea when a coin was graded. OTOH, the NGC holder to the best of my knowledge has not changed a great deal over the years, excepting the addition of the hologram.

 

For me the slab is a starting point. If I was selling my coins right now, the afore-mentioned inconsistency could hurt me. At this point, I believe the market for higher end material is driven by registry set fever. There are a number of people with deep pockets who collect slabs rather than coins.

 

A seller is at a distinct disadvantage if he has some PQ coins that he has not resubmitted (fill in the blank) many times to get them upgraded. The most blantant case of this was the guy who kept resubmitting a Seated $ in 4. On his 10th resubmission, it upgraded to a 5 holder.

 

On many occasions, I've seen, say, a with motto Seated Half in 4 which was clearly superior to one in 5 right next to it. In an auction situation, that Seated Half in 4 will most likely bring less money than the one in 5. IMO, a PQ 4 will bring less than an overgraded 5.

 

The other problem is that as liner coins upgrade, you are seeing a dimunition of the quality of the higher graded coins. I am seeing IMO far too many contact marks and / or inferior surfaces on super grade coins, most recently Seated Quarters W Motto in MS 66 and 67. I saw one in 7 which had a gash running along Miss Liberty's upper jaw a week or so ago.

 

Because of this inconsistency, when the coin was graded becomes as important as the grade itself. This is why many people like "green labeled" PCGS coins.

This can be a major turnoff to a newbie, and to some degree, frustrate a collector who has "been at it" for awhile.

[RotatedRainbows]

 

Well this ought to anger a few folks:

 

Grading services are basically for those insecure with their knowledge, education, and skills in what is supposed to be their passion.

 

OK, let the hate begin.

 

At one time that may have been true but in today's world slabs have become an essential part of the market with so much activity being done over the net (not to mention a way to help protect top notch coins for future collectors). Now the knowledgeable collector just sorts thru the piles of slabs to pick out only the best most accurately graded eye appealing coins for their collection. Slabbing was created to let coins trade like commodities since you know what your buying by the number on the insert but what has become painfully obvious is that not all slabs/coins are created equal so the more you know about the coins you collect the better off you will be and the Internet has a treasure trove of information previously not available to most collectors.