Red or Red Brown?

[MikeKing]

This coin is graded PF 66 NGC Red Brown

Could anyone explain the color designation?

Thanks

this is the Obverse

[MikeKing]

this is the Reverse

[Wihlborg]

Mike,

 

First I will say that I like that coin very much. Second, I agree with NGC that the color is red-brown due to what looks like some nice purple tone on the obverse. The reverse looks more like a nice golden red to me from the photo. Am I right about the colors?

 

John

 

[PQSeated]

PCGS and NGC both seem to downgrade color designation due to toning, the same is true with cameo designation. I don't know why they do it, but maybe because they can't get an accurate view of the coin with toning maybe?

[shylock]

Gorgeous coin! With beautifully toned proof Indian Heads the RB & BN designation is an afterthought. Technically they use the BN tag when no substantial red remains, but often these have no brown on them either. And some of the RBs have neither red nor brown, so go figure!

 

Attached is an image of one of TomB's coins, solid blue on both sides and graded BN.

[TomB]

I see no problem with the color designation on that coin. When the red color has mellowed enough to allow the other colors into the fields, as this coin has, it will always get the RB designation. This is a very wide designation range that will still be found on coins that are substantially darker and more brown.

 

Thanks for posting the image, shylock! Shylock and I have taken turns owning this magnificent IHC. Attached is another image of this coin that shows the color a little differently.

[Beijim]

These are some beautiful coins you guys have posted .

 

Keep 'em coming! The more I see of this sort of coloring, the more I appreciate toned coins. And this is from a guy who really loves coins that appear as though they just came off the dies.

 

Regards,

Beijim

 

[shylock]

Beijim - they're my favorite, but are the toughest coins to image. Attached is an attempt to photo one of mine, along with a second image posted below. IH proofs were issued in tissue wrappings by the Mint and most have at least some degree of toning as a result. Proof copper seems to be ultra-sensitive to its environment and the ones stored in their original paper for years acquired some wild colors.

 

An excerpt from a Snow article:

 

"Beautiful toned proofs from the Prosky hoard. Starting in 1878, it seems that one of the major coin dealers of the era, David Prosky, started buying up all the remaining specimens of the proof cents, 3 cent pieces, and 5 cent pieces leftover at the end of the year. This hoard of proofs was accumulated throughout the rest of the Indian Cent series and numbered in the hundreds of coins per year. This group of Indian Cent proofs was still intact when the entire hoard was bought by Frederick C.C. Boyd, I believe around 1910. Later these were mostly all sold to Howard MacIntosh of Tatham Stamp & Coin Co. By this time the coins had mostly acquired beautiful iridescent purple toning and were advertised as such in their monthly ads in The Numismatist throughout the 1940's and 1950's. Today these purple toned beauties are very tough to find. Many have had their toning muted due to early rejection by PCGS and NGC. (They know better now and will most likely grade any original iridescent toned proof, if found) Although iridescent toned bronze coins invariably get graded as "Brown", they certainly don't trade anywhere near the "BN" bid. We accept iridescent toned coins labeled Brown as Red-Browns and price them accordingly."

 

 

[Beijim]

Paul, that Indian Head is simply incredible! You did a very creditable job of imaging it, but I'm sure the coin is even more impressive in person!

 

Beijim

 

[TomB]

That's a killer cent, Paul!

[Wihlborg]

Now that's nice!

 

John

[michael]

another red brown proof indian cent with the red in this coin not mint red at all

 

just toned this fire engine red

 

the proof indians with rb or red designation that have the tremendous eye appeal like the coins you have seen on the attachments in this thread are really undervalued uncommon coins

 

sincerely m ichael

[MikeKing]

John, you're right about the colors.

All those IH's above are just incredibly beautiful. And thank you everyone for those pictures.

I have to profess my ignorance about the R RB B differences and appreciate all the input. My understanding now is that it's red until there's some toning on it even if it's red toning, and that blue (and that blue coin is beyond the planet Saturn) is really brown by designation. Do I have this right?

I couldn't resist the coin I showed you, and I'm glad it got the up and up from you guys. IH's are really nice coins. There's a lot to study and learn here.

Thanks for all your input,

Michael

[pmh1nic]

I don't know about RD or RB but it's a beautiful coin. One of these days I'll have to educate myself on copper color designation. Does anyone know a good reference book or website that explains the designations (with pictures )?

[michael]

get the pcgs grading guide thst came out like 4 years ago? this book can explain to you in written and photo form the red and red brown designation it is the most excellent bookform printed explaination i have seen

 

the ultimate is to look at coins in person with someone who can tell you but this book is a good start and gives you a good idea of this red and red brown copper thing

 

sincerely michael

[Oldtrader3]

Start with Rick Snow www.indiancent.com. There are several articles (one on grading) that give a solid perspective of the industry at least as it regards Indian Cents and grading.

 

Although I certainly do not qualify as any expert on copper, I have dealt with Rick since he worked with Eliot in Tucson (20 years ago) and Rick is one of the World Class experts and a straight shooter on earlier copper. Plus, he guarantees his grades and color.

[pmh1nic]

I never paid much attention to the section in the PCGS guide on copper (I guess that's obvious). I'll have to crack it open again.

 

The link to "indiancent" said the sight was under construction.