Improper Storage of Gem Proof Copper Coins (with Images)

[CTcollector]

Greg has been more than a friend of this board

 

Yes, he has. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with him. Trust me, Greg can take care of himself. Let's have a discussion so that I can learn something.

I more than respect the right of people to disagree.

And I have no problems with discussing things.But blatant statements were made.

And if I am not mistaken ,Thats not really discussing.

 

I do have some questions though.

 

If Mr Snow isn't a coin doctor, How is Greg?

And how is it that Mark can't see that?

How Is Mr Snow different, Other than mark doesn't want to tick him off.

 

I personally believe Mr Snow is a Fabulous Gentleman.Note that I said Gentleman.

I personally believe everything he posted.

I say the exact same thing about Greg.

 

However, In my opinion, there was a disingenuous posting across the street that sought to inflame and eventually was brought over here to My side of the street.

 

No one brought it over here to discuss it.

What we got was finger pointing and accusations.

 

An outright accusation and then A supporter of the accuser.

 

If they had come to discuss I would have had no problem.

 

Maybe I am a bit weird. But My neighbors don't dump their trash in my yard here either.

 

I brought the initial thread over and I think it turned out the be a good thing. It enlightened some people over here to the shenanigans going on in the Proof Indian Cent market. I also learned something from some of the responses by NGC posters. In my opinion, the ones who are blowing gaskets over this are upset with the exposure and are having a difficult time coming to grips with it.

 

Also, last I looked, this is OUR side of the street.

[MarkFeld]

Hi Greg,

 

In response to your post:

 

1) Did quoting your two comments about MS70 constitute "taking a shot" at you? If so, you're not nearly as tough and secure as I thought you were.

 

2) I was not necessarily trying to "infer" (or more accurately, "imply") that "a large percentage do turn blue with the use of MS70". I mentioned another possibility, that being "....or have been very, very busy with a large number of coins." And your "FYI, I’d guess I’ve submitted several thousand coins to the services this past year or so" confirms that.

 

3) I didn't say that you were the only one producing such coins, so please don't give yourself too much "credit". I am certain that there are others doing something similar or the same thing.

 

4) Please stop wiggling your finger at me - it's intimidating, especially since you're considerably taller than I am.

 

5) I did not indicate I think all of your coins are blue. I believe you when you say that many are not.

 

6) I don't remember such a conversation from Long Beach two years ago, but since I do see you at that show sometimes, it would be unfair to you and likely incorrect, to say it didn't take place.

 

For those who might think I have something personal against Greg, as I've told him, I really like him - he's a very personable, bright, fun person to talk to. But I dislike his cleaning, improving, beautifying, doctoring - call it what you will - activities. That said, if the major grading companies grade and encapsulate his coins, as I understand it, they are indicating that (edited to add: in their opinion) the coins are ok/"market acceptable".

[gmarguli]

Edited by MarkFeld (07/20/06 03:03 PM)

 

Damn, I was going to make fun of you for having two #1's, but you fixed it.

[relicsncoins]

I'm just a lowly collector with a small budget, so take this for what it is worth. It seems to me that the thread in question originally started out by showing 2 different images of the same coin with a dramatically different appearance. When questioned about how this could be, the owner of the coin(s) attempted to explain this as being caused by the original coin being coated in varnish\laquer\shellack which had oxidized to a brown and covered up the vivid toning that was already there. By removing this coating with MS70/Acetone, the true beauty of the coin was revealed.

 

There have been alot of acusation floating around about whether these coins were "doctored" or simply conserved. We should be able to reproduce these results by simply taking an Indian Proof that has nice toning and coating it with some old time laquer which should be available from an antique restorer. I think until some legitimate experimentation is done to prove or disprove this, the rest is just speculation and oppinion.

 

JJ

[MarkFeld]

Relicsncoins, the issue of lacquer removal and its effect on a coin's color/appearance pertained to the coins I first posted about on the PCGS forum. On the other hand, at least some of the coins posted here with before and after images did not have lacquer on them in the first place.

 

I believe that Greg is on record as saying he did nothing more than apply MS70 to certain coins posted here. I am not disputing that, as I don't know what he did. I have seen before and after images and a number of the coins in person, and the color/appearance change was dramatic.

 

It is for each individual and the grading companies themselves, to determine whether they are of the opinion that such coins are "natural" and/or "market acceptable" as opposed to "AT".

 

I think it's a very important topic for the hobby, and welcome opinions, especially informed ones, and good polite discussion.

[Beijim]

B4) I send my coins to PCGS. They take 4 months to grade. It was an Express Submission. I get no free grading voucers due to the blackout days. The salt air by the PCGS building causes them to tone wild. Are they AT?

What a riot. Greg, you are definitely the premiere comic around here.

 

In your example, the coins are clearly NT, not AT, because PCGS is infallible and in any event would claim they were even if you were to challenge the point. Any undesirable toning would be your fault for packing the coins improperly and not ordering walkthrough service.

 

Beijim

[relicsncoins]

Mark,

 

I just think it's tough to gather much from photos. I recently scored what I thought was a great looking coin on Ebay for 14 bucks. The original photo from the auction was blury and did not show the true color of the coin. Here it is.

 

 

Here is the coin after I recieved it and re-imaged it.

 

 

 

There have been several people on both sites with much more knowledge on toned coins than I offer up oppinions with some saying NT with out a doubt and some saying AT without a doubt. I think I'll pass it around at the ANA in Denver this Summer just to satisfy my own curiosity. But it does go to show that there are many oppinions on the same coin by pretty experienced collectors.

 

JJ

[MarkFeld]

Based upon the coin's appearance, and the widespread belief among experts I've spoken with that natural blue coloration on business strike Indian Cents is far rarer than on Proofs, my guess (and it's only a guess) is that the color is not natural.

 

 

What a riot. Greg, you are definitely the premiere comic around here.

 

In your example, the coins are clearly NT, not AT

Beijim, based upon what do base that forceful assertion?

[gmarguli]

I believe that Greg is on record as saying he did nothing more than apply MS70 to certain coins posted here.

 

Just to be clear:

 

1) I am on record that for the 1914 MPL Childs coin I did nothing more than use MS70 on it.

 

2) I am on record that the only thing I have ever used on a coin is MS70 & Jeweluster - which is available at most coin shops.

 

3) I have not, nor will I, confirmed or deny that any other coins are the same. I've stated my reasons multiple times for this.

 

 

 

I think it's a very important topic for the hobby, and welcome opinions, especially informed ones, and good polite discussion.

 

Yet you started the thread across the street. That's like wanting fine mexican food and going to Taco Bell.

[MarkFeld]

I believe that Greg is on record as saying he did nothing more than apply MS70 to certain coins posted here.

 

Just to be clear:

 

1) I am on record that for the 1914 MPL Childs coin I did nothing more than use MS70 on it.

 

2) I am on record that the only thing I have ever used on a coin is MS70 & Jeweluster - which is available at most coin shops.

 

3) I have not, nor will I, confirmed or deny that any other coins are the same. I've stated my reasons multiple times for this.

 

 

 

I think it's a very important topic for the hobby, and welcome opinions, especially informed ones, and good polite discussion.

 

Yet you started the thread across the street. That's like wanting fine mexican food and going to Taco Bell.

Greg, regarding #3 above - you need not confirm it, as it is obvious that some, if not all of the coins in the before and after images, are the same.

 

I started the thread "across the street", for a number of reasons, one of them being because I knew it would receive more attention from collectors and dealers there.

[chinook]

1. These coins are remarkably similiar in appearance and are all from the same submission to NGC.

 

 

 

2. $747.50 is a very fair price for a 1914 1c in NGC PF65RB

 

3. Patrick....Sorry. Case of mistaken identity

[WinstonWare]

Zach, my wife is talking my ear off and if I don't listen then my life only gets worse. Can you try to find me a link to an inexpensive copper medal from the mint? The MS70 is only 6 bucks and I know where I can get that.

 

Mark, Why is the toning more common in Indian head proofs? I don't understand why that would be the case. In my mind they are both equally copper.

 

Thanks!

[MarkFeld]

Sorry, I don't know the answer. I can tell you, however, that for most coin types, Proofs tend to tone differently, color-wise, than business strikes do.

[MikeInFL]

Sorry, I don't know the answer. I can tell you, however, that for most coin types, Proofs tend to tone differently, color-wise, than business strikes do.

 

Here's Rick Snow's take from another thread:

 

Many of the purple and vivid toned Indian Cents we see today came from the Proskey hoard - look it up in Bowers' Hoards and Treasures book. Also in Abe Kosoff - Dean of Numismatics. One of Kosoff's first big coin deals was a hoard of vivid toned proof which he distributed to Wyatte Raymond and Howard McIntosh of the Tatam Coin Co. Anyway, you can cover up these vivid toned Indians easily enough with laquer, a thick coat of Blue Ribbon or even PVC. When you remove it again it will still be intact. Try as anyone might, you cannot create this kind of color, short of leaving them in Mint wrappers for 30 years. It's already there waiting to be uncovered.

 

My own understanding, ignorant as it may be, is that many of the naturally toned late date IHCs (particularly with the look of those discussed in this and related threads) were toned because they were stored in mint tissue paper, and as a result of storage in this sulphur-ladden paper, they toned -- sometimes spotted/mottled and other times brilliantly colored. You see them both in coins part of original tissue toned sets, as well as single coins from the Proskey Hoard. Business strike coins, in comparison, were not stored in the mint-issued tissue paper, thus they toned differently. Attractively toned business strike IHCs are much more rare than their proof cousins. Having not studied toned business strike IHCs, I can only hazard a guess that envelopes, albums and rolls were common mechanisms for naturally toned business strikes, and business strikes toned in this manner look significantly different than the tissue toned proofs.

 

I hope this helps...Mike

[gmarguli]

2. $747.50 is a very fair price for a 1914 1c in NGC PF65RB

 

Well according to the Heritage auction archives, in January 2005 one sold for less. All the others after it sold for more. I call it cheap.

[zrlevin]

Here ya go Winston!

 

You can take your pick; I think all of the 1 1/2 inch medals are less than four dollars, plus shipping.

 

Zach

[jom]

Yet you started the thread across the street. That's like wanting fine mexican food and going to Taco Bell.

 

I started the thread "across the street", for a number of reasons, one of them being because I knew it would receive more attention from collectors and dealers there.

 

No you didn't, you liar. You did it because you secretly like Taco Bell.

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

 

No you didn't, you liar. You did it because you secretly like Taco Bell.

 

jom

 

Hey,you got something against folks who like Taco Bell?

[michael]

For those who might think I have something personal against Greg, as I've told him, I really like him - he's a very personable, bright, fun person to talk to. But I dislike his cleaning, improving, beautifying, doctoring - call it what you will - activities. That said, if the major grading companies grade and encapsulate his coins, as I understand it, they are indicating that (edited to add: in their opinion) the coins are ok/"market acceptable".

 

 

did you make lots of money doing this greg??? would you want someone doing this to you greg?? expecially one of your friends

 

[michael]

1) I am on record that for the 1914 MPL Childs coin I did nothing more than use MS70 on it.

 

2) I am on record that the only thing I have ever used on a coin is MS70 & Jeweluster - which is available at most coin shops.

 

3) I have not, nor will I, confirmed or deny that any other coins are the same. I've stated my reasons multiple times for this.

 

 

 

okie you will not admit anything

 

okie sounds good to me...............NOT

 

[jom]

Hey,you got something against folks who like Taco Bell?

 

None whatsoever. Other than the fact I'd personally rather drink a bottle of MS70 before eating any food at Taco Bell I see no problem with anyone who chooses to dine at their fine establishment.

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

Hey,you got something against folks who like Taco Bell?

 

None whatsoever. Other than the fact I'd personally rather drink a bottle of MS70 before eating any food at Taco Bell I see no problem with anyone who chooses to dine at their fine establishment.

 

jom

 

 

dude,they make good soft tacos

[gmarguli]

Hey,you got something against folks who like Taco Bell?

 

None whatsoever. Other than the fact I'd personally rather drink a bottle of MS70 before eating any food at Taco Bell I see no problem with anyone who chooses to dine at their fine establishment.

 

jom

 

So basically you're saying that Taco Bell is 'market acceptable'?

[jom]

[so basically you're saying that Taco Bell is 'market acceptable'?

 

Apparently, Tubbs thinks so. Frankly, he'll be lucky to live past 35 but, hey, it's a free country....

 

jom

[Beijim]

What a riot. Greg, you are definitely the premiere comic around here.

 

In your example, the coins are clearly NT, not AT

Beijim, based upon what do base that forceful assertion?

Hi Mark,

 

Sorry, I was just being sardonic and amplifying on Greg's funny example in which PCGS takes four months to grade a theoretical coin that tones due to exposure to salty sea air during the wait. Sometimes I forget that folks might not know I'm trying to be funny since they can't see my eyes rolling or hear the tone of my voice! I need to use smiley icons more liberally. Or stop attempting humor...

 

Beijim

[Brotherman]

I’m new to this hobby. I’ll admit that I don’t know enough about toning on

copper to give an opinion on the subject. Since I don’t know enough – I don’t

buy it. So, I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m not accusing anyone here

of doctoring coins.

 

But I wasn’t born yesterday either - I know that coin doctors exist.

 

As someone that cares about the future of this hobby, recent events have

brought some questions to mind:

 

If removing lacquer would reveal astonishing toning underneath – why wasn’t

there any articles in any trade magazines of this amazing discovery?

Wouldn’t the person that discovered it want to share this information with

the world?

 

Why wasn’t there talk of this technique and the results it produces previous

to someone posting before and after photos of the same coin?

 

I think if there were a chance to debate this issue BEFORE any coins were

sold, then emotions wouldn’t be so high. The fact is, the way this information

has come to light makes it looks suspicious.

 

One thing’s for sure – I won’t be buying any toned copper in the future. I bet

the auction houses are about to get flooded with them.

 

Hays

[Newmismatist]

If removing lacquer would reveal astonishing toning underneath – why wasn’t there any articles in any trade magazines of this amazing discovery?

Wouldn’t the person that discovered it want to share this information with

the world?

 

Quick answer: No!

 

Why? If you knew how to find coins that were grossly undervalued, would you publish it so every one else could get them first?

 

I removed lacquer from a rare date BN Proof IHC that a I paid several thousand dollars for. It ended up in my #1 PF IHC registry set, not as a BLUE coin, but as a PR64RD DEEP Cameo - the 1st Bronze Deep Cameo ever certified by PCGS - It sold in a public auction for more that I paid for it - bought by an "Upgrader" who got it into an even higher grade, but lost the "Deep" designation of the Deep Cameo designation.

 

 

One thing’s for sure – I won’t be buying any toned copper in the future. I bet the auction houses are about to get flooded with them.

 

Please encourage your friends not to either. As I collect toned copper, that's good news for me - means I get to buy the nice original toned copper coins for less!

[MAULEMALL]

If removing lacquer would reveal astonishing toning underneath – why wasn’t there any articles in any trade magazines of this amazing discovery?

Wouldn’t the person that discovered it want to share this information with

the world?

 

Quick answer: No!

 

Why? If you knew how to find coins that were grossly undervalued, would you publish it so every one else could get them first?

 

I removed lacquer from a rare date BN Proof IHC that a I paid several thousand dollars for. It ended up in my #1 PF IHC registry set, not as a BLUE coin, but as a PR64RD DEEP Cameo - the 1st Bronze Deep Cameo ever certified by PCGS - It sold in a public auction for more that I paid for it - bought by an "Upgrader" who got it into an even higher grade, but lost the "Deep" designation of the Deep Cameo designation.

 

 

One thing’s for sure – I won’t be buying any toned copper in the future. I bet the auction houses are about to get flooded with them.

 

Please encourage your friends not to either. As I collect toned copper, that's good news for me - means I get to buy the nice original toned copper coins for less!

Secrets out Newmismatist. I don't think that jeanie is going back into that bottle.

But I might be buying stock in MS70

[Bruceswar]

 

One thing’s for sure – I won’t be buying any toned copper in the future. I bet

the auction houses are about to get flooded with them.

 

Hays

 

 

Hays, You have gvin yourself some great advice. Don't deal in coins you don't know about. I am not saying your dumb, but if you know little to nothing about toned copper, its best to stay away until you feel comfortable buying them.

[Brotherman]

One thing’s for sure – I won’t be buying any toned copper in the future. I bet

the auction houses are about to get flooded with them.

 

Hays

 

 

Hays, You have gvin yourself some great advice. Don't deal in coins you don't know about. I am not saying your dumb, but if you know little to nothing about toned copper, its best to stay away until you feel comfortable buying them.

 

Don’t worry Bruce – I know you’re not calling me names. Not your style

anyway. BESIDES – it is good advice whether you are buying coins or

cows: Never invest in something you know little about. I’ll learn as much as

I can though even if I never try to buy any.

 

As Maul put it – the jeanie is out of the bottle now. I just wonder how long

has MS70 been around? Why wasn’t it’s use of finding “hidden” toning

common knowledge?

 

The way this information came about still looks fishy to me. My solution is to

not buy any toned copper – for me that’s the safest thing to do. I hope

other newbies do the same for their own sake.

 

Hays