Improper Storage of Gem Proof Copper Coins (with Images)

[gmarguli]

Were those people using MS70 to tone coins, get upgrades, and selling them for huge profits? If so, I can understand why they might take that position.

 

Does MS70 tone coins or remove surface contamination and tarnish to reveal what it underneath that toning? Please provide your scientific research.

 

You can grab a bottle here of MS70. Read the instructions and note: MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish.

 

 

People who do such things are parasites of our hobby, plain and simple. To see other collectors defend such actions is unbelieveable...Mike

 

Defense comes with knowledge. If you have no knowledge of what you're talking about, you shouldn't talk about it.

 

 

p.s. I'm still waiting for your lawyer's call.

 

Funny story, a few months ago some people were screwing with me. I asked if it was worth being sued over. They shrugged their shoulders and laughed. I get a call from one two Saturdays ago. "What's going on? I was just served! Why you suing me?". I laughed and laughed and laughed and recounted the shrug to him. He offered to settle right then and there. My lawyer and I are still talking it over. Poor shrugger, it'll be expensive for him if I settle or if I continue the fight.

 

But, don't worry. Your libelous statement was only up for a few minutes. I'll ignore it.

[MAULEMALL]

If he had a set he would post his unedited statement here.

But I suspect his Blustering Bravado is a testament to his inability to comprehend the difference between coin conservation and coin doctoring.

 

I personally think you should litigate.

[MikeInFL]

Were those people using MS70 to tone coins, get upgrades, and selling them for huge profits? If so, I can understand why they might take that position.

 

Does MS70 tone coins or remove surface contamination and tarnish to reveal what it underneath that toning? Please provide your scientific research.

 

You can grab a bottle here of MS70. Read the instructions and note: MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish.

 

If that is so, then what did you mean when you stated:

 

Occasionally MS70 can impart a blue or red color (not orange, but red) on copper. It happens a small percent of the time and is pretty much instantaneous when you wipe the coin to clean it.

 

So either the directions are wrong or you were misrepresenting the truth. Which is it?

 

 

People who do such things are parasites of our hobby, plain and simple. To see other collectors defend such actions is unbelieveable...Mike

 

Defense comes with knowledge. If you have no knowledge of what you're talking about, you shouldn't talk about it.

 

Thank you for the advice and implication of ignorance.

 

 

p.s. I'm still waiting for your lawyer's call.

 

Funny story, a few months ago some people were screwing with me. I asked if it was worth being sued over. They shrugged their shoulders and laughed. I get a call from one two Saturdays ago. "What's going on? I was just served! Why you suing me?". I laughed and laughed and laughed and recounted the shrug to him. He offered to settle right then and there. My lawyer and I are still talking it over. Poor shrugger, it'll be expensive for him if I settle or if I continue the fight.

 

But, don't worry. Your libelous statement was only up for a few minutes. I'll ignore it.

 

That's what I thought....Mike

[MarkFeld]

"You can grab a bottle here of MS70. Read the instructions and note: MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish"

 

But, Greg, don't forget about where, based upon your own experiences you posted:

 

"MS70 can cause some copper to be blue (as seen on the MPL), pink (acid dipped look - ruined), or have no affect on the color at all. Blue and pink colors appear on a very small percentage of the coins. Most often all that it will do is strip the dirt and grime off the surfaces. It's really a great product for removing stuff off the surfaces."

 

If those pretty colors appear on only "a very small percentage of the coins", the fact that you have apparently produced as many as you have, indicates that either you have defied the odds or have been very, very busy with a large number of coins.

[gmarguli]

Were those people using MS70 to tone coins, get upgrades, and selling them for huge profits? If so, I can understand why they might take that position.

 

Does MS70 tone coins or remove surface contamination and tarnish to reveal what it underneath that toning? Please provide your scientific research.

 

You can grab a bottle here of MS70. Read the instructions and note: MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish.

 

If that is so, then what did you mean when you stated:

 

Occasionally MS70 can impart a blue or red color (not orange, but red) on copper. It happens a small percent of the time and is pretty much instantaneous when you wipe the coin to clean it.

 

So either the directions are wrong or you were misrepresenting the truth. Which is it?

 

 

I know nothing about chemistry, so I can't really say what is happening. I do know the following:

 

1) I've used it on hundreds of Red coins. It has never resulted in a coin being blue.

 

2) I've used it on thousands of Brown coins. It has resulted in a very small percentage of the time a coin being blue.

 

If MS70 can MAKE coins blue (i.e. AT them if you wish), then why won't it do it to red coins? Is MS70 making the coins blue or revealing the blue or removing only certain layers that allow for blue to be visible? Who knows. Perhaps we'll hear from all the people posturing about this and they'll give us a final answer. However, I have a feeling this will go away shortly and those people will forget all about the cause of the day.

 

 

 

 

 

People who do such things are parasites of our hobby, plain and simple. To see other collectors defend such actions is unbelieveable...Mike

 

Defense comes with knowledge. If you have no knowledge of what you're talking about, you shouldn't talk about it.

 

Thank you for the advice and implication of ignorance.

 

Well, if you're going to call conservation doctoring, then that does show some ignorance. Sorry.

[MAULEMALL]

"You can grab a bottle here of MS70. Read the instructions and note: MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish"

 

But, Greg, don't forget about where, based upon your own experiences you posted:

 

"MS70 can cause some copper to be blue (as seen on the MPL), pink (acid dipped look - ruined), or have no affect on the color at all. Blue and pink colors appear on a very small percentage of the coins. Most often all that it will do is strip the dirt and grime off the surfaces. It's really a great product for removing stuff off the surfaces."

 

If those pretty colors appear on only "a very small percentage of the coins", the fact that you have apparently produced as many as you have, indicates that either you have defied the odds or have been very, very busy with a large number of coins.

Are you here to call Greg a coin doctor.

[MikeInFL]

If he had a set he would post his unedited statement here.

But I suspect his Blustering Bravado is a testament to his inability to comprehend the difference between coin conservation and coin doctoring.

 

I personally think you should litigate.

 

Michael was right, you are a [embarrassing lack of self control] insufficiently_thoughtful_person....Mike

 

p.s. Comprehend this: In order for a statement to be libelous, it must be false.

[MarkFeld]

..But I suspect his Blustering Bravado is a testament to his inability to comprehend the difference between coin conservation and coin doctoring.

Patrick, I'm in Mike's camp. Why don't you please explain it to those of us who can't comprehend? Thanks

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

"Are you here to call Greg a coin doctor."

 

Define "coin doctor" precisely and I'll be pleased to answer your question. In the mean time, I'm here, partly because you talk as if you know a lot more than most of us on this subject. If you really do, I'd love to learn from you.

[MAULEMALL]

..But I suspect his Blustering Bravado is a testament to his inability to comprehend the difference between coin conservation and coin doctoring.

Patrick, I'm in Mike's camp. Why don't you please explain it to those of us who can't comprehend? Thanks

Sure ..as soon as you answer my question.Is Greg In your opinion a coin doctor.

I read how you re quantified your statements across the street and I understand you used to be a grader with NGC. Of which NCS is a part.Is NGC in league with coin doctors?

I am happy that Mikeinfla has a freind. Will you be testifying in his defense?

[MAULEMALL]

..But I suspect his Blustering Bravado is a testament to his inability to comprehend the difference between coin conservation and coin doctoring.

Patrick, I'm in Mike's camp. Why don't you please explain it to those of us who can't comprehend? Thanks

Sure ..as soon as you answer my question.Is Greg In your opinion a coin doctor.

I read how you re quantified your statements across the street and I understand you used to be a grader with NGC. Of which NCS is a part.Is NGC in league with coin doctors?

I am happy that Mikeinfla has a freind. Will you be testifying in his defense?

Ask your friend Mike.He made a pretty acusetory statement.I wish he had the stones to post the unedited post.

[MarkFeld]

Sure ..as soon as you answer my question.Is Greg In your opinion a coin doctor.

I read how you re quantified your statements across the street and I understand you used to be a grader with NGC. Of which NCS is a part.Is NGC in league with coin doctors?

I am happy that Mikeinfla has a freind. Will you be testifying in his defense? I told you that I'd be happy to answer your question when you defined "coin doctor" precisely. If you can't or wont define it, I can't answer, and any discussion about whether someone is or is not one, is pointless.

 

Please point out to me where I "re quantified" my statements? And if you can't, perhaps you shouldn't make such comments. Thanks.

[MAULEMALL]

..But I suspect his Blustering Bravado is a testament to his inability to comprehend the difference between coin conservation and coin doctoring.

Patrick, I'm in Mike's camp. Why don't you please explain it to those of us who can't comprehend? Thanks

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

"Are you here to call Greg a coin doctor."

 

Define "coin doctor" precisely and I'll be pleased to answer your question. In the mean time, I'm here, partly because you talk as if you know a lot more than most of us on this subject. If you really do, I'd love to learn from you.

There is nothing I could teach you mark.

[IGWT]

So, the pertinent question seems to be whether MS70 imparts a blue tone (by chemical reaction or otherwise) or reveals a pre-exising blue tone underlying a brown surface. We ought to be able to get an answer to this question.

[MAULEMALL]

Sure ..as soon as you answer my question.Is Greg In your opinion a coin doctor.

I read how you re quantified your statements across the street and I understand you used to be a grader with NGC. Of which NCS is a part.Is NGC in league with coin doctors?

I am happy that Mikeinfla has a freind. Will you be testifying in his defense? I told you that I'd be happy to answer your question when you defined "coin doctor" precisely. If you can't or wont define it, I can't answer, and any discussion about whether someone is or is not one, is pointless.

 

Please point out to me where I "re quantified" my statements? And if you can't, perhaps you shouldn't make such comments. Thanks. Perhaps you ,As a profesional coin dealer, A former professional grader with NGC,in your expert opinion grow a spine and answer the original question.

[IGWT]

C'mon, Patrick, your attacks are not advancing the conversation. Do you agree or disagree with the way that I phrased the question in my last post? I think it's important to know the effect of MS70 on copper; and, once we know the answer to the question, we can debate whether its use in this way is good or bad.

[MAULEMALL]

C'mon, Patrick, your attacks are not advancing the conversation. Do you agree or disagree with the way that I phrased the question in my last post? I think it's important to know the effect of MS70 on copper; and, once we know the answer to the question, we can debate whether its use in this way is good or bad.

I haven't attacked anyone. Greg was attacked. I think it was unwarrented and I won't sit back and watch it.

 

I asked simple and direct questions.They can try and turn it around but if you got something to say say it or STFU.

 

I realize some don't appreciate my directness but TS.

 

Greg has been more than a friend of this board and if the trolls want to launch into him at least be a Man about it.

[IGWT]

Greg has been more than a friend of this board

 

Yes, he has. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with him. Trust me, Greg can take care of himself. Let's have a discussion so that I can learn something.

[MarkFeld]

Sure ..as soon as you answer my question.Is Greg In your opinion a coin doctor.

I read how you re quantified your statements across the street and I understand you used to be a grader with NGC. Of which NCS is a part.Is NGC in league with coin doctors?

I am happy that Mikeinfla has a freind. Will you be testifying in his defense?

I told you that I'd be happy to answer your question when you defined "coin doctor" precisely. If you can't or wont define it, I can't answer, and any discussion about whether someone is or is not one, is pointless.

 

Please point out to me where I "re quantified" my statements? And if you can't, perhaps you shouldn't make such comments. Thanks. Perhaps you ,As a profesional coin dealer, A former professional grader with NGC,in your expert opinion grow a spine and answer the original question. Patrick, you asked a question which contained a term with different meanings for different people. I politely asked you twice to define the term precisely so that I could answer YOUR question. I also asked you another question.

 

Rather than defining the term in your own question and/or answering my question, you insulted me and made a claim (about my re-quantifying) which I don't think you can substantiate.

 

You don't appear to be willing (or perhaps able) to have a substantive discussion. But I'll proceed anyway....

 

Below is a definition I found for "coin doctor" and, based on it, I believe that Greg easily qualifies. I don't think he can legitimately disagree either, based upon some of his own comments here.

 

"coin doctor: someone who attempts to improve the appearance of a coin by cleaning, repairing, plugging and/or any other deliberate alteration".

[WinstonWare]

IGWT,

 

I don't know the answer to your question but I will respond just to keep this thread moving in a positive direction. Um...to me there were too many examples of copper coins going from brown to blue in the thread across the street. But I do see your point. Maybe the examples were just 10 out of 1000 dipped pieces.

 

What would be a good experiment? I think if we had a new copper piece we could try soome MS70 on that and see what we get. Wouldn't have to be a copper coin. It could be a token or medal. Does anyone have a cheap new copper piece to donate? If not we could probably find something on ebay for cheap...just a thought.

[zrlevin]

You could get a small bronze medal from the mint for $4, I think, maybe cheaper. I think that this would be an interesting experiment.

 

Zach

[MarkFeld]

So, the pertinent question seems to be whether MS70 imparts a blue tone (by chemical reaction or otherwise) or reveals a pre-exising blue tone underlying a brown surface. We ought to be able to get an answer to this question.

I agree. Here is what I posted on the PCGS forum about the 1914 Proof Lincoln Cent, the "before and after" images of which have been displayed here:

 

<<Gmarguli claims all he did was swab some MS-70 on it to remove "grime". If this coin were really "cooked", I would think the splotchy toning pattern on the reverse would have been covered up. >>

 

The question at hand is whether or not the MS70 is causing the blue coloration or simply bringing out what's already there. If it's the cause, then this is AT. >>

 

I think it is bringing out what is already there. If you look at the reverse, the dark spotches are exact the pattern of the blue toning which was allegedly revealed by removing the grime with MS-70. >>

 

I viewed that particular coin before its color was changed, when it sold as lot #700 in Heritage's April 2006 sale. I remember how beautiful the obverse was and how disappointed I was when I turned it over and saw the reverse. It was pedigreed to the Walter H. Child's collection, and if I recall correctly, many of those coins were purchased directly from the mint.

 

I firmly believe that the coin, which started out life as a "RD" example, turned/mellowed to "RB" over a period of many years, before being treated and turning to the vivid colors it is now. On the other hand, I don't believe that it started off as "RD", next turned to the vivid colors it is now, THEN somehow changed to the "RB" color seen in the Heritage sale, THEN turning back to its current vivid colors that it exhibited previously.That scenario/series of events simply doesn't add up to me, and can't be explained without some very special creativity. I don't think that pre-existing colors were simply brought out, but rather, that new/different colors resulted from the use of whatever substance was applied. Certain substances turn coins colors, and not necessarily colors that the coins exhibited previously.

 

The Heritage description follows below:

1914 1C PR65 Red and Brown NGC. Ex: Childs. The intricately struck rose, orange, and apple-green surfaces are unspotted and void of marks. Walter Childs died in 1906, but his heirs continued to add to the collection, including the finest known 1804 dollar, purchased in 1945.

Ex: Walter H. Childs Collection (Bowers and Merena, 8/99), lot 81.(Registry values: N991)

[MarkFeld]

IGWT,

 

I don't know the answer to your question but I will respond just to keep this thread moving in a positive direction. Um...to me there were too many examples of copper coins going from brown to blue in the thread across the street. But I do see your point. Maybe the examples were just 10 out of 1000 dipped pieces......

Winstonware, I assure you, there are far more coins than that involved.

[MAULEMALL]

Greg has been more than a friend of this board

 

Yes, he has. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with him. Trust me, Greg can take care of himself. Let's have a discussion so that I can learn something.

I more than respect the right of people to disagree.

And I have no problems with discussing things.But blatant statements were made.

And if I am not mistaken ,Thats not really discussing.

 

I do have some questions though.

 

If Mr Snow isn't a coin doctor, How is Greg?

And how is it that Mark can't see that?

How Is Mr Snow different, Other than mark doesn't want to tick him off.

 

I personally believe Mr Snow is a Fabulous Gentleman.Note that I said Gentleman.

I personally believe everything he posted.

I say the exact same thing about Greg.

 

However, In my opinion, there was a disingenuous posting across the street that sought to inflame and eventually was brought over here to My side of the street.

 

No one brought it over here to discuss it.

What we got was finger pointing and accusations.

 

An outright accusation and then A supporter of the accuser.

 

If they had come to discuss I would have had no problem.

 

Maybe I am a bit weird. But My neighbors don't dump their trash in my yard here either.

[MAULEMALL]

"coin doctor: someone who attempts to improve the appearance of a coin by cleaning, repairing, plugging and/or any other deliberate alteration".

 

 

Then what you are saying is that 75 to 80% of the pcgs boards are coin doctors.

 

Russ (whom I Deeply respect and thru whom I have learned and have made a nice bit of change)

Gives cleaning clinics.

 

Marty posts weekly on his exploits in the crack and bath resubmission..

By the way Marty's coins Rock.

 

NCS is doctoring as well??

[MAULEMALL]

"coin doctor: someone who attempts to improve the appearance of a coin by cleaning, repairing, plugging and/or any other deliberate alteration".

 

 

Then what you are saying is that 75 to 80% of the pcgs boards are coin doctors.

 

Russ (whom I Deeply respect and thru whom I have learned and have made a nice bit of change)

Gives cleaning clinics.

 

Marty posts weekly on his exploits in the crack and bath resubmission..

By the way Marty's coins Rock.

 

NCS is doctoring as well??

I guess we are all coin doctors.

 

Or a facilitator.....

[MarkFeld]

"coin doctor: someone who attempts to improve the appearance of a coin by cleaning, repairing, plugging and/or any other deliberate alteration".

 

 

Then what you are saying is that 75 to 80% of the pcgs boards are coin doctors.

 

Russ (whom I Deeply respect and thru whom I have learned and have made a nice bit of change)

Gives cleaning clinics.

 

Marty posts weekly on his exploits in the crack and bath resubmission..

By the way Marty's coins Rock.

 

NCS is doctoring as well??

Based upon that particular definition, I believe that your 75 to 80% could be high OR low (I don't know), and NCS would qualify too. That is why I tried more than once to get you to provide a working definition before I answered your question. Many use the term "coin doctor" to mean more extreme and/or "bad" things - there are obviously many methods and degrees of "coin doctoring".

[JamminJ]

Here's my definition: Doctors move metal in quantities visible to the naked eye.

[gmarguli]

Wow Mark, you came over here. I thought you were only going to take shots at me from across the street. Glad to see you made it over here after a couple days. I guess now that Rick is gone, you need a new live target.

 

 

"You can grab a bottle here of MS70. Read the instructions and note: MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish"

 

But, Greg, don't forget about where, based upon your own experiences you posted:

 

"MS70 can cause some copper to be blue (as seen on the MPL), pink (acid dipped look - ruined), or have no affect on the color at all. Blue and pink colors appear on a very small percentage of the coins. Most often all that it will do is strip the dirt and grime off the surfaces. It's really a great product for removing stuff off the surfaces."

 

If those pretty colors appear on only "a very small percentage of the coins", the fact that you have apparently produced as many as you have, indicates that either you have defied the odds or have been very, very busy with a large number of coins.

 

 

Sorry Mark, but your logic is flawed, you're missing many facts, you’re guessing about things you don’t know about, and you’re forgetful.

 

1) You are trying to infer that a large percentage do turn blue with the use of MS70. Please don’t say the use of the word “apparently” lets you off the hook or I’m going to start quoting Shakespeare on you.

 

This is incorrect and I have clearly stated otherwise. Unless you have some proof that I am lying – which I would love to see - it would be best for you not to make those statements. You’ve chastised many people on the other forum for commenting on things that they don’t have facts on. Tsk tsk Mark!

 

FYI, I’d guess I’ve submitted several thousand coins to the services this past year or so. Only the nice ones go in. Lots more pass thru my hands. The percentage that are toned blue is very small.

 

 

2) You seem to think that I have produced a lot of these. Do you have any hard numbers to back this up? Of course not. You have no idea how many coins I have used MS70 on or how many have had blue toning. You don't know if I’ve had 10 coins or 100,000. You don’t know if it is 90% or .000001% that were toned blue. If you’re going to say I’ve either defied the odds or handled a ton of coins, you should have some facts to support both possibilities. Otherwise, you might as well add, or you steal all the blue ones you come into contact with and give them to me to sell... Tsk tsk Mark!

 

 

3) You have seen several blue toned ones that came from me. Do not infer that all the coins I work on turn blue. There is a reason you have seen a disproportional number of blue coins. You told me that you would not deal in ANACS or ICG slabs. You're a slab snob and would only sell PCGS & NGC. Therefore, the only coins I sold to you were in NGC or PCGS slabs. You never got to see the other ones.

 

I have purchased quite a few Indians over the past few years. You only got to see the ones that ended up in NGC or PCGS slabs.

 

I like to turn coins fast. Since the nice ones bring decent money, most of those went to NGC using the Express tier. NGC is supreme when it comes to their Express Tier. Two days and it’s graded and shipped.

 

Most coins with color that I felt might get the Star designation went to NGC. The Star designation gives me an added premium when selling. Therefore, all coins I think might qualify for the Star were submitted to NGC. And I feel that NGC is more inline with the grading standards for BN Indians than PCGS & ICG. FYI, NGC turned out to be super stingy with this designation.

 

Also, the ones that are BN with cameo got submitted to NGC. PCGS will not give a cameo to BN, so they are out. ICG is very stingy with cameo on BN, so they don't get many. I'm not too big of an ANACS fan.

 

Therefore, you got to see a disproportional amount of the coins I’ve owned that had color or cameos. Don’t assume that if 10 of 10 you saw fit the above that all the ones I’ve had were like that. Go to a Ferrari service center. Looking around with your blinders on you’d assume everyone in the city drives a Ferrari. Doesn’t make it true just because all the people you currently see are driving a Ferrari.

 

The lower quality coins that were not worth Expressing thru NGC due to the cost went to the other services that you wouldn’t touch. I just got some ANACS back and some ICG ones are in the mail to me as of Tuesday. I should have those back by Saturday. Would you like to see them so you can confirm that they are normal brown? If I’m the blue master, why aren’t they blue?

 

BTW, remember at the ANA show in SF I showed you a box of ICG graded Indians? They were all nice and clean, but completely brown. All had been MS70ed. You'd not deal with them since they are ICG graded, but you introduced me to J.S. to wholesale them out. Again, if I'm so adapt at "making them blue" then why were those common brown?

 

On eBay I’ve probably sold 10 Indians over the past year. I recall only one having any blue on it. The others were brown. Why is that?

 

And I’ve even sold several brown ones to you. Why weren’t they blue?

 

Tsk tsk Mark! You need to think these things thru, not just assume the worst. Perhaps the PCGS forums are getting to you? Why not stay over here for a while – just promise not to post any of your hypotheticals over here.

 

BTW, I'm surprised that you're making something out of this blue copper right now. When I told you about it at Long Beach two years ago, you dismissed me outright. I take it you don't remember that conversation. Like I've said before, it's never been a secret.

[gmarguli]

So, the pertinent question seems to be whether MS70 imparts a blue tone (by chemical reaction or otherwise) or reveals a pre-exising blue tone underlying a brown surface. We ought to be able to get an answer to this question.

I agree. Here is what I posted on the PCGS forum about the 1914 Proof Lincoln Cent, the "before and after" images of which have been displayed here:

 

<<Gmarguli claims all he did was swab some MS-70 on it to remove "grime". If this coin were really "cooked", I would think the splotchy toning pattern on the reverse would have been covered up. >>

 

The question at hand is whether or not the MS70 is causing the blue coloration or simply bringing out what's already there. If it's the cause, then this is AT. >>

 

I think it is bringing out what is already there. If you look at the reverse, the dark spotches are exact the pattern of the blue toning which was allegedly revealed by removing the grime with MS-70. >>

 

I viewed that particular coin before its color was changed, when it sold as lot #700 in Heritage's April 2006 sale. I remember how beautiful the obverse was and how disappointed I was when I turned it over and saw the reverse. It was pedigreed to the Walter H. Child's collection, and if I recall correctly, many of those coins were purchased directly from the mint.

 

I firmly believe that the coin, which started out life as a "RD" example, turned/mellowed to "RB" over a period of many years, before being treated and turning to the vivid colors it is now. On the other hand, I don't believe that it started off as "RD", next turned to the vivid colors it is now, THEN somehow changed to the "RB" color seen in the Heritage sale, THEN turning back to its current vivid colors that it exhibited previously.That scenario/series of events simply doesn't add up to me, and can't be explained without some very special creativity. I don't think that pre-existing colors were simply brought out, but rather, that new/different colors resulted from the use of whatever substance was applied. Certain substances turn coins colors, and not necessarily colors that the coins exhibited previously.

 

The Heritage description follows below:

1914 1C PR65 Red and Brown NGC. Ex: Childs. The intricately struck rose, orange, and apple-green surfaces are unspotted and void of marks. Walter Childs died in 1906, but his heirs continued to add to the collection, including the finest known 1804 dollar, purchased in 1945.

Ex: Walter H. Childs Collection (Bowers and Merena, 8/99), lot 81.(Registry values: N991)

 

Mark, you might remember my comment on this I sent to you in email:

 

You either have zero taste or you do not remember this coin. The coin did not have a beautiful obverse. It was thickly oxidized and had very poor muted luster. Look at the original pictures. The coin was dead! Why do you think it sold so cheap? The entire coin was covered in heavy oxidation. It was a piece of [embarrassing lack of self control].

[MAULEMALL]

"coin doctor: someone who attempts to improve the appearance of a coin by cleaning, repairing, plugging and/or any other deliberate alteration".

 

 

Then what you are saying is that 75 to 80% of the pcgs boards are coin doctors.

 

Russ (whom I Deeply respect and thru whom I have learned and have made a nice bit of change)

Gives cleaning clinics.

 

Marty posts weekly on his exploits in the crack and bath resubmission..

By the way Marty's coins Rock.

 

NCS is doctoring as well??

Based upon that particular definition, I believe that your 75 to 80% could be high OR low (I don't know), and NCS would qualify too. That is why I tried more than once to get you to provide a working definition before I answered your question. Many use the term "coin doctor" to mean more extreme and/or "bad" things - there are obviously many methods and degrees of "coin doctoring".

In my opinion, Non abrasive cleaning is not doctoring.

Even though it may hurt a coin in some instances.

In my opinion Greg did Not doctor those coins,in my opinion he conserved them.

 

Now I will ask you to give your opinion.Conserved or doctored?

I will be away from my computer for a bit but I will reply later.